SAHM 2024: A Conversation with Yasmin Batliwala

In the first episode of our miniseries of podcasts celebrating South Asian Heritage Month 2024, Gautam Bhattacharyya, chair of Reed Smith’s India Business team, welcomes Yasmin Batliwala MBE, CEO of Advocates for International Development. Together, they explore Yasmin's career path, her mentors and inspirations, her passion for pro bono work and the significance of her Parsi heritage.

Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast,  our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others.  You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.  

Gautam: Hello everyone and welcome to another of our Reed Smith podcasts and this one is part of our special mini-series to celebrate and mark South Asian Heritage Month 2024 and I'm overjoyed to have as our podcast today the incredibly impressive Yasmin Batliwala. Hello Yasmin. 

Yasmin: Hello Gautam, lovely to be here. 

Gautam: It's lovely to have you and I've been really so excited to do this podcast with you. For our listeners, I'm going to introduce Yasmin so you can appreciate just what an amazing person she is. Yasmin is the chief executive of Advocates for International Development, a very prominent pro bono and CSR institution with which Reed Smith has had a very long and happy relationship and association. And we continue to do so. And I've known Yasmin for many, many years. and we've had many a discussion about our shared passion for pro bono work and the importance of lawyers doing pro bono work and the impact that it has. Yasmin is responsible for overseeing the work of A4ID, as I'll call it, and she's held many prominent roles in the public and third sector over her very illustrious career. Apart from pro bono work, her portfolios have included some incredible causes. Those include HIV and AIDS, drug alcohol, dependency, and criminal justice. She has also undertaken work for the UN's Office of Drugs and Crime, and has a great deal of board experience too, having, amongst other things, been on the board of a large NHS trust. Yasmin also, to the extent she has spare time, and I'm stunned she does have spare time, has also served as a magistrate in the Youth and Adult Courts. She's also, as you can imagine, been the recipient of several honors. And amongst those, and there are many of them, she has been awarded the City of London Woman of Achievement for her public service work. And in 2022, Yasmin received an MBE for her work in human rights, the rule of law and international development as part of the Queen's New Year's honors list. So it really is a wonderful privilege to be speaking to you on this podcast, Yasmin, and I'm really looking forward to our discussions. Now, let me start with this as we get into our discussion. Tell us a little bit about your career background. I've already highlighted for our listeners a few of the roles that you've undertaken prior to your current role as chief executive of A4ID. But I wonder whether you could give us a little bit of a background about how you got to your role at A4ID and your career background, which has led up to that. 

Yasmin: Thank you very much, Gautam. I'd like to start then by thanking you for inviting me to join in this podcast and for the opportunity to talk about the work of Advocates for International Development, which I know that you know that I'm truly passionate about. So to answer your question about what I was doing prior to A4ID work-wise, before joining A4ID, basically I ran my own consultancy, providing senior level support to the public and non-profit sectors. My work primarily involved problem solving, managing teams, assisting the recruitment of CEOs and other executive positions. And I should say that I thoroughly enjoyed being self-employed as it allowed me to spend quality time with my two young daughters as they were then. And I could work during their nursery hours and resume tasks when they were asleep. And incidentally, I even earned more money than I've ever done since while I was working for myself. Throughout my career, I think you've said, I have worked mainly in the public and non-profit sector. And you've indicated the background work I've done within the drugs field and also in HIV. And I've also served, as you've mentioned, on various boards, including also a university, as well as on police authority, where I briefly held position of chair. I currently chair VIA, formerly known as WDP, which is a leading charity providing drug and alcohol services across the UK. VIA is known for its quality of services and innovative approach. And I like to think that my leadership has played a role in its success. Now, in respect to other things that have brought me to A4ID, I was invited to get involved with A4ID just by chance. Someone suggested that I met the executive director at the time. She and I got on swimmingly and as a consequence of that I started to work with her to look at how we could build the organization so that's really a potted summary of my career to date. 

Gautam: Well thank you and it really is I mean you know you've packed a lot in in your wonderful career today and undertaking some amazing work for lots of really important causes and you know I think I think one of the things I just want to step back to is you've had a very impressive career. Of that, there's no doubt. And it's ongoing, right? You're not finished yet. Not by a long way. But we all benefit from mentors and inspirations in the course of our career. And I wonder whether you could share with our listeners some of your biggest career mentors and inspirations so far. 

Yasmin: Gautam, I think that's a really difficult question because I have been inspired by so many people over the years. Obviously, those who have supported and encouraged me stand out, ranging from my line managers and peers to various teams that I've worked with, including actually my current team. Indeed, my very first job was doing what was called action research on illicit drug use in SW5, which is Earls Court, and also the West End. Professor Betsy Ettore was my line manager at the time, and she was simply amazing. She encouraged me to think for myself and was always available when I needed her. I was at the time fresh out of university and yet she treated me like an equal and I valued that because she actually listened very carefully to what I had to say and supported my ambition for the study that we were doing. Now coming back to where I am today I suppose I especially want to mention the board of A4ID. Their support has been incredible but it's their pioneering spirit and belief that everything is possible that truly inspires me. They also believe in me personally which has been invaluable and enabled me to push forward with our vision. Roger Leese, the chair of A4ID and a partner at Clifford Chance, has perhaps been a significant inspiration throughout our time working together. We've often solved problems by approaching them from completely different perspectives, and his insights have always been spot on. Indeed, the longer I have known him, the more I've come to respect him. To me, integrity and respect are very important in those that have inspired me. And perhaps the reason I've been working in this role for so long has been mainly because of the individuals that I have been fortunate to come across over the years. Now, I've been particularly impressed by the legal profession's can-do culture and their attitude that everything and anything is possible, which happens also to be my perspective in life. This approach and their understated passion is something I greatly admire. The entire legal pro bono community, from international law firms that we work with, to in-house counsel, the judiciary, paralegals and barristers, demonstrate to me their remarkable dedication. They use their skills and intellect to contribute to the greater good, often without expecting recognition or even a pat on the back. Let me give you an example close to home. Now, you've mentioned just in your start the involvement of Reed Smith. So when I joined A4ID, Reed Smith provided us with the accommodation. At that time, A4ID was a much smaller organization with fewer staff and a smaller turnover. Right. Without Reed Smith's support, I'm not sure A4ID would have thrived. Reed Smith even contributed their staff's time to oversee the development of A4ID at the beginning, not seeking thanks or recognition, just doing what they could to help the cause. If anything was requested from them, they would think about it and come back to us with a solution about how to make it happen. So I, for one, have immense admiration for Reed Smith and the support that the firm has provided ever since our inception in 2006. Many of our law firms have also, as well as corporate partners, have also shown and continue to show some support over the years. They've supported A4ID in its journey and through us have provided expert pro bono legal advice to international development sector and have also donated funds to enable us to exist and to function. And I firmly believe that through the law, we can change the world for the greater good and that lawyers have a key role to play in making this happen. Imagine no other profession is able to achieve this, only the legal profession. What inspiration is that? So to answer your question, I would say I've been most inspired by the legal sector with which I've been fortunate to work with and why I'm still in this role after all these many years. 

Gautam: Well, thank you, Yasmin. That was an incredibly impressive set of points. And I just wonder if I could dig into that a little bit. Extremely, there's a lot I could unpack there. But let me focus on what makes pro bono work so important. Now, we all know it's really important. It has real impact. And lawyers are integral to that. And so I wonder whether you could give us your thoughts on just why pro bono work is so important and why law firms and the teamwork that they achieve is so important to make that happen. You mentioned in your answer just now just how unique in many ways the legal profession is to be able to deliver those sorts of services and results. And I certainly know how enriching it's been for me personally to be heavily involved in pro bono work for so many years. But I wonder whether you could share your thoughts on that, please. 

Yasmin: Thanks, Gautam. I would say that pro bono work is vital because it allows professionals and the corporates to give back to the community, promoting social justice and addressing systemic inequalities. qualities. By providing free legal services to those who cannot afford them, pro bono work ensures that access to justice is not limited by financial means. This contribution really helps to level the playing field, ensuring that vulnerable and marginalized communities and individuals can defend their rights and receive fair treatment under the law. If you look at CSR for law firms, on the other hand, I think it encompasses a broader range of activities beyond pro bono work, which includes ethical business practices, environmental sustainability and community engagement. Pro Bono also, I would say, demonstrates the company's commitment to operating responsibly and contributing positively to society. These initiatives enhance the company's reputation, build trust with stakeholders, and also we find continually that it can lead to increased employee satisfaction and retention. Through pro bono, law firms and corporates can address various social issues from poverty and education to health and environmental protection. The other thing I think that's really important with regard to pro bono, is teamwork that law firms can do. Teamwork is essential in making pro bono successful because it allows the pooling of resources, expertise and networks. Law firms possess specialized legal knowledge and skills and are crucial for tackling complex legal issues. By collaborating, firms can leverage their collective expertise to provide a comprehensive and effective legal assistance. I think this collaborative approach really does ensure that beneficiaries receive high quality support, which are tailored to their specific needs. Also, teamwork among law firms fosters a culture of shared responsibility and mutual support. And we find that when law firms work together with us on pro bono projects, they can share best practices, learn from each other's experiences, and really develop innovative solutions to very common challenges. This collective effort amplifies the impact of their work, making it possible to address larger and more complex issues than any single firm could or tackle alone. It also, I suppose, fosters a sense of solidarity and purpose within the legal community as a whole. So collaboration enhances the reach and scalability of pro bono. By joining forces, and certainly by joining forces with us, law firms can extend their service to a broader range of beneficiaries and communities. This expanded reach is particularly important in addressing systemic issues that require coordinated efforts across different jurisdictions and different sectors which apply to us at A4ID. Collaborative initiatives can mobilize more resources including funding, personnel, technological tools to support large-scale projects and long-term interventions. In fact, teamwork with law firms also provide opportunities for professional development and capacity building. We find and I find continually that lawyers engaged in pro bono work gain valuable experience and skills to enhance their professional growth. Put simply pro bono work makes you a better lawyer. The reason is obvious through A4ID lawyers are exposed to diverse legal issues and client populations broadening their perspective and very much enriching their practices. Additionally, firms that actively participate in these initiatives can attract and retain talent by demonstrating their commitment to social justice as well as ethical practices. And as I've said already, co-ordinated efforts in pro bono can lead to systemic change by addressing root causes of social issues and advocating for policy reforms, law firms can help to create a more equitable and just society. Collaborative projects that people do with A4ID often involve strategic litigation, legislative advocacy and public education concerns, campaigns that go beyond individual cases to affect broader societal change. This strategic approach maximizes the long-term impact of pro bono. So effective teamwork also ensures that pro bono is sustainable. And by sharing the workload and resources, firms can maintain those long-term communities to these projects. Sustainability, after all, is crucial for achieving lasting impact and ensuring that the beneficiaries receive continuous support. Collaborative efforts help distribute the responsibilities and costs which are associated with these initiatives, making it much easier for firms to sustain their involvement over time. So to conclude, pro bono work is essential promoting social justice, corporate responsibility. Teamwork with law firms is crucial for maximizing the effectiveness and reach and sustainability of these initiatives. And through collaboration, law firms can leverage their collective expertise, resources and networks works to make a significant positive impact on society and advance the cause of justice for all. So in a nutshell, that's what makes pro bono so incredibly important. 

Gautam: Thank you, Yasmin. And you know, everything you said there, I was just absorbing and just realizing just how it all aligns with exactly how I see it. Because I can honestly tell you, Yasmin that us and you know we've had many a conversation about what pro bono means to each of us but i know that some of my most satisfying outcomes that i've achieved as a lawyer for clients for for pro bono clients have come from that sort of work it's it's not just about doing big cases as we do and as i as i do for big corporate companies a big industrial groups for governments, etc, etc. That's, of course, very important to the life of a law firm. But a law firm needs to be known for everything it brings. And I can honestly say, and I can't talk about some of these cases, but some of the most important cases I've done have involved taking on the establishment. Establishment for people who would otherwise not have access to law firms what I call big law big law firms and those law firms come together in teams like you say often in conjunction with other law firms and there are a number of examples where Reed Smith has teamed up with other law firms and it's a wonderful thing because the perception is otherwise that law firms are all competitors. They're like boxers in a boxing ring. But we're not actually. That's really a myth. We operate in a marketplace, yes, but on pro bono work, we actually come together in a very productive way. And so, no, thank you for sharing those really, really, really amazing thoughts, because I'm sure our listeners, it'll really resonate with our listeners. So thank you for that, Yasmin. I wonder whether I could just now turn to the question of heritage, because heritage is obviously a very important thing. And this podcast is being recorded and will be published as part of South Asian Heritage Month. And I wonder whether you could just share with us a little bit about what makes your heritage so empowering and so important and uplifting for you. 

Yasmin: Well, Gautam, as you know, I'm a Parsi. Parsis originated from ancient Persia and fled to India, I think around the 6th, 7th century to escape religious persecution. Their successful integration and preservation of our culture and religious identity in a foreign land. For me, I think exemplify the resilience and adaptability of the community of Parsis. The religion of the Parsi community is Zoroastrianism, which places its values of saying good thoughts, good words and good deeds and doing good deeds. This provides very much of a strong moral and ethical foundation, promoting a positive and proactive approach to life and encouraging meaningful contributions to society. And despite being a small community, and I do mean small, as a number of Parsis are reducing year on year to the point of extinction, I should say, Parsis have made significant contributions in various fields such as business, science, arts and philanthropy. Indeed, social responsibility and generosity of spirit are highly encouraged within the community. So I suppose my heritage is empowering and uplifting because it connects me to a rich and a diverse cultural tapestry that informs my identity and sense of self. This connection to my roots provides me with a deep understanding of where I come from and the traditions that have shaped my community over generations. The stories, the customs and values that have been passed down to me are a source of pride and strength, offering a foundation upon which I can build my own life and my own aspirations. Considerations this cultural inheritance if you like acts as my guiding light influencing my values behaviors and perspectives cultural heritage has also paid i think a significant role in shaping my world view and moral compass the values and ethics inherited from my cultural background guide me guide my actions and decisions promoting principles such as respect as i've have mentioned before, integrity, but also responsibility. These values are not just abstract concepts. They are lived experiences demonstrated by my family members and the community. This moral grounding is empowering as it provides clear guidelines on how to navigate life's complexities and make meaningful contributions to society. And as I've mentioned, My commitment can only be demonstrated by my contribution to the various public sector boards and roles that I've had within the community in which I live. So that's very, for me, a very important part of being a Parsi and a member of a community that will disappear, I suspect, in the not too distant future. 

Gautam: Yeah, no, thank you, Yasmin. I am indeed very familiar with the Parsi history. And indeed, many of my best friends in the law are Parsis. And if I just take one jurisdiction, for example, in India, right, which you, of course, know very well, there are many prominent Parsi lawyers. And there have been. One of my greatest mentors was Fali Nariman, who was India's most celebrated lawyer, who unfortunately passed away in February of this year. But many, many prominent lawyers in India are Parsis. And many of the big industrial houses, as you know, in India, are Parsi in origin and remain Parsi in management and in all that they do. And those concepts of doing business fairly and being philanthropic, like very heart of Parsi culture. So it's very interesting. And I recall also, I grew up, Yasmin, in Northwest London. And very near where I went to school, there was an old cinema that stopped showing films. And it was taken over by the Parsi community. And it became a Zoroastrian center of worship. And this goes back to my much younger days. So I'm very familiar with that. And it's very interesting how it continues to inform you and inspire you, because it should do. And I also, I'm also very familiar with the fact that the Parsi community is getting smaller. As people marry outside of the Parsi faith, that inevitably has an impact. But the pride and the history of the Parsis is so rich. And, you know, it'll always be everlasting. So, and there's a long way yet to go. So, no, thank you for that. That's really, really nice to know. And, you know, just one last question on that before we turn to the last topic. What, in terms of looking at the examples of what the Parsi tradition and faith and heritage has taught you, one of the things that I'm always very mindful of is that the pro bono tradition, as I call it, is very well developed in certain jurisdictions. Jurisdictions but it's yet to develop fully in some jurisdictions now one of the countries where it is gathering pace is certainly India but just look at the size of that country and the legal community there i mean just briefly what you know what are your thoughts about what we could do to try to expand the pro bono tradition in a wonderful jurisdiction like India, 

Yasmin: Actually, I think there's an awful lot that can be done. There's certainly an interest. We have been working in India and in fact have an entity called the A4ID Foundation, which is wholly Indian. We've been working alongside some amazing lawyers. In fact, part of the board comprises of some absolutely amazing Indian lawyers who are working with us to develop this. So we are bringing the culture to the pro bono culture that already exists, actually, within India and within the Indian community. But it's about using their legal brains that we're starting to to encourage. And that's happening, happening slowly, but it is happening. And with the vast number of lawyers in India, just think what we could do. Amazing. The other thing I wanted to just mention in terms of what you said was this week I received a gift from one of my team, members of my team. He's actually based in India. And the gift was a signed copy of the constitution, Indian constitution by Nariman. 

Gautam: Oh, wow. Yeah. It's a wonderful book. Yes. And so I've been dipping since he sent it to me. I've been dipping in it. It's quite a quite a tomb. And I actually thought when I saw it, oh, my God, am I going to be able to read this? Because, you know, it's quite an interesting but quite a how can I put it, a dry topic. 

Gautam: Yeah. 

Yasmin: But having looked at it and read through it, it's actually brilliantly easy to read. He simplifies things because he knows the subject area so well that it's so easy to read. And I would thoroughly recommend if you have the opportunity to do so. And that includes your the people listening to this. I would thoroughly recommend it. It's a fantastic read. 

Gautam: I agree. And, you know, the whole concept of the constitution is so important because it comes down to fundamental principles of fairness and doing things in an orderly way, in a proper way, and upholding that separation of power and not enabling things to just become merged as one. And that independence of thought is very very important now that's well i i think you're very fortunate to have a signed copy of that of that tome um i'm sure it'll be well thumbed in days and weeks to come as you read it so yes we've come almost to the end of our podcast and i've enjoyed, as i always do speaking to you i've had as i've said in the introduction i've had many a conversation with you over the years. I've always come away a much better person after each of those conversations, and this conversation has certainly been no exception to that. One of the traditions that we have in this podcast series, and I'm going to maintain that tradition even though this is a mini-series for South Asian Heritage Month, is to ask you a few more lighthearted things, to get to know the non-pro bono chief executive, Yasmin Batliwala. And so I want to ask you three very, very simple questions. Nothing mean, because I'm not a mean person, as you know, Yasmin. I want to ask you three little questions. First of all, have you got a favorite sort of music? 

Yasmin: So on that question, I'd say, where do I start? I like all sorts of music. I have a particular preference, I should say, for classical music. Anything, anything at all by Mozart or J.S. Bach are things that I would be listening to regularly. I also like opera. In fact, I love opera. And I'm also a fan of David Bowie, I should say. But recently, Gautam, I've discovered a new genre of music, and that's heavy metal and electronic music. 

Gautam: Amazing. 

Yasmin: I’ve discovered a band called Disturbed, who are amazing. So to all your listeners, I encourage you to listen to their rendition of Simon and Garfunkel's song, Sound of Silence, which is absolutely mesmerizing and haunting. 

Gautam: I’m going to check it out myself. 

Yasmin: So let me know what you think. I've also discovered a band called Rammstein. I think that's how you pronounce it, which is a German heavy metal group of the 1990s. And I think, I think, and I seem to be listening to them quite a lot. And finally, I've also discovered, recently discovered, Mongolian electronic throat music. And that's totally blown me away. So I've been listening to that. So in terms of my musical taste, it's slightly expanding. 

Gautam: That is incredibly eclectic. And I'm going to check out the German metal band and the rendition of Sound of Silence. I'm going to check those out. And I must tell you just very briefly on the Mongolian throat music. Many years ago, I was very fortunate to do a case for the government of Mongolia. It was a litigation in the English courts. And it went all the way to the Court of Appeal here. And I'm very happy that we won in the High Court and in the Court of Appeal. And I had the very good fortune to get to Mongolia twice on that case and to the great city of Ulaanbaatar. And I got introduced to Mongolian throat music. Now, the first trip was 2002-2003, around about then. I've not heard the electronic version as yet, but I'm certainly aware of the more basic classical rendition of throat singing. And also on that trip, I also learned about the eagle dance, which is a very famous dance that they do because the eagle and horses are very revered in Mongolia. And there's a dance which the wrestlers, Mongolian wrestling is also very popular and the wrestlers before they start the bout do this thing called the eagle dance. It's, I mean, I'll tell you more about it when I see you next. Okay, just two more quick ones and then I know we'll wrap. But have you got a favorite holiday destination or place that you just love to visit? 

Yasmin: I, yeah, I like it. I love Italy. I don't think I've ever been to any single place And I like to travel around and visit different places that I haven't liked. So I like Italy. I like Italy also. But not only its beauty, its architecture, but the food and the people. So it's not far too far away from the UK. And so if ever I have an opportunity, I've gone to Italy. Recently, though, I went to Sicily. And that was a real find because it's obviously, I mean, talking about cultural traditions and cultural heritage, it seems to have been basically every country has stepped foot on it and taken it over. And it's left these amazing it's the amazing footprints so we've got the Greeks we've got the Normans we've got the various Moors as well all of them make it such a very interesting place. 

Gautam: Absolutely. It just shows how cultures have moved around the world. One last question. We are recording this podcast during the European Championships in football. And this is not a leading question. And I am a lawyer. So this is not a leading question. Who's going to win the European Championships? Which country? 

Yasmin: I’m afraid I don't watch football. So I can't answer that question. I have been to football matches, Gautam, and I haven't known what's been going on. This was during my time at the police authority, where I went out with the police at Watford to observe how policing was done. It was a lovely day, although we got up incredibly early, I seem to recall. But I had no idea what was going on in the pitch. Um it was slightly tribal in terms of the shouting. It was Manchester and Watford Manchester not sure if it was City or United. I think it was City it had um one of the Gallagher um one of the Gallagher 

Gautam: Yeah it's Man City then 

Yasmin: Yeah so just to watch that whole kind of tribal way was quite fascinating so i'm afraid i can't answer your question. 

Gautam: That's quite okay you um you've answered many many questions in the course of this podcast yasmin thank you very much for doing this podcast it's been a delight to do it and to speak to you and um I could literally have asked you lots more questions and spent more time but these podcasts unfortunately would go on for a very long time if we did that but thank you very much indeed and thank you particularly for doing all the wonderful work that you continue to do on the the pro bono side and the great example you set through your leadership. So thank you very much. 

Yasmin: Gautam, thank you so much also for inviting me to this podcast, which I must say I've enjoyed immensely. And if anyone listening out there is interested to work together with us at A4ID, please do contact me. And who knows what we can achieve together. 

Gautam: Thank you, Yasmin. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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