Legislating identity: The fight to protect transgender rights

2021 has been a record-breaking year for legislative attacks on the LGBTQ+ community, with a tragic focus on anti-transgender legislation. Over 30 state legislatures have introduced more than 100 bills that would curb the rights of transgender people.

Sasha Buchert, senior attorney at Lambda Legal, discusses the impact of these bills, and describes the coordinated response that Lambda Legal is taking to protect the LGBTQ+ community.

Reed Smith Global DE&I Advisor Iveliz Crespo and Partner Alan York, who is also global chair of the firm’s LGBTQ+ business inclusion group, co-host this important session.

Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast. Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

Iveliz: Hey, everyone. Welcome to Inclusivity Included. I'm very excited for today's episode. Today, I'm joined by guest co-host Alan York. Alan uses he/him pronouns and is a partner in Reed Smith's Commercial Disputes Group and also serves as the global chair of PRISM, Reed Smith's LGBTQ Business Inclusion Group. Alan is a tremendous advocate for the LGBT community and we are lucky to have him here today. Alan and I are fortunate enough to be joined by change agent Sasha Buchert. Sasha Buchert is a senior attorney in, in the Washington DC office of Lambda Legal. The oldest and largest organization dedicated to advocating for the civil rights of lesbians, gay men, bisexual, transgender individuals and individuals living with HIV. Thank you Alan and Sasha for joining us today. 

Alan: So happy to be here Iveliz. 

Iveliz: Now Sasha before we get started and again, I want to thank you so much for joining us. Uh I want to stay in line with our theme. You know, our, our theme is powerful personal stories. And I would love to hear a little bit about who you are. You know, your background and your motivation to be this LGBT rights advocate and, and let us know a little bit about, you know, yourself and your career. 

Sasha: Sure. Yeah, I don't want to bore people. So I'll keep this relatively brief but you can, if you want to know more, feel free to reach out. Uh But yeah, I, um I grew up in the Midwest and, you know, I always knew I was trans, I'm openly trans and, you know, I'm a little older. So at that time there, you know, there wasn't the word transgender, so I had no idea what was going on. You know, I, I heard of gay and lesbian folks, uh, not bisexual people but, but never the word transgender. So, you know, I, you know, wander through the wilderness and then, you know, tried to root out that part of myself by joining what I, what I think a lot of trans women do is to join the Marine Corps to try to root out that part of me. And, and after that didn't work, I entered the wilderness for a few more years and finally decided, hey, you know, it's just time to, to be an adult and to come out and live authentically and come out to my friends and family. It was, you know, definitely the hardest thing I've ever done that was after law school. And after, you know, uh, beginning to transition, I started to dig into, you know, the legal issues that trans books encounter and, you know, I just really frankly just got more and more upset and just, you know, really, you know, I wouldn't say anger but just deeply unsettled with the barriers. You know, this is, you know, this is how I made, this is who I am and, you know, to create all of these barriers, you know, and this is in a relatively progressive part of the country. It was in Oregon, you know, I just really wanted to be part of the fight and so marched down to our state equality group who I love basic rights to Oregon at that time. And, you know, just, you know, really, uh insisted on participating in some way, you know, volunteer and then I, you know, slowly got more entrenched and joined their staff for a while. And then, um, you know, a job came open at transgender law Center down in the Bay area. And that was very exciting. And who I actually, um, the first person that works at a law firm was a lawyer named Jim Wood who worked at Reed Smith for many years, who was a volunteer there who was really a great mentor. So after that went to Lambda Legal, and I've been doing it for about 10, 11 years and I've never looked back, I love it. You know, it's, it's, it comes from, you know, what drives me is still the anger to be frank, you know, and the barriers and especially this year and looking at what's, you know, um the way trans folks are treated in this country and, and in the world, but also love, I deeply love my community and I deeply love myself and I feel like that's a, that's really important to driver as well. 

Iveliz: You know, that's beautiful. Uh You know, I mentor a lot of GMC and gender expansive youth and I can tell you that it's always amazing to them to see themselves represented and reflected in people in leadership and, and people who, you know, have survived in a way that is authentic to who they are. And so thank you so much because you're paving the way for so many other folks. And, you know, I, I it just, it's amazing to me to hear that. So thank you so much because I can recall just when I was in law school and looking around and trying to find out who the queer lawyers were, who the non-binary lawyers were and, you know, they weren't any. Um And, and we're still you and far in between, but it's certainly great like you said to be in community. And, and I was so excited this morning to have you join us and to be here with Alan because we are in community and I'm always happy to be in community with you folks. So thank you. So, you know, you mentioned that you worked at Lambda Legal and some folks, you know, may not be as familiar with the work of Lambda Legal. I know Reed Smith, uh once again, uh is a national sponsor and has been a continuous sponsor of Lambda Legal. And the work that they do much to Alan's credit. But, you know, for those that aren't as familiar, I would love to hear a little bit about the organization's mission and maybe talk a little bit more about the advocacy work that the organization advances. 

Sasha: Yeah. And I, I'm assuming that the audience will be mostly a bunch of uh legal nerds. So this is, that always makes this a little easier. But, you know, at Lambda Legal is the oldest, as you mentioned earlier, uh the oldest and largest uh LGBT legal organization in the country. We were started in 1973 and we've been duking it out ever since. When I wanted to work here, I started to do some homework and just, it was just absolutely floored. You know, the looking at the cases that Lambda brought and to move equality forward, you know, cases like Bragdon v. Abbott, if you're familiar with that case and, uh, Lawrence v. Texas, obviously, you know, a huge one, you know, all the marriage equality fights. Yeah, we've been doing it for, for, for many years and, you know, we cover a wide range of issue areas and have since 1973 and, you know, including decriminalizing uh being LGBT and also working on relationship recognition, but also in a lot of other areas, you know, including a lot of groundbreaking work on behalf of people living with HIV. You know, whether it's our challenge to, you know, the military, you know, denying people that are HIV positive to serve to public accommodations, issues, barbershops turning away people living with HIV, just really proud to be part of this organization. You know, look at our employment work, Greg Nevins, if folks are familiar with him has been spearheading this work for many years and making the arguments that, you know, finally came to fruition last June and the Bostock decision. You know, Greg's been making those decisions for many, many years going back to, you know, 2011 and uh Glenn v. Brumby, you know, on behalf of a transgender woman arguing that federal non discrimination law encompasses um protection for LGBTQ folks. And, you know, just, it was, it was stunning to see the decision actually because, uh you know, most of the arguments that came from, from that decision from Justice Gorsuch were, were arguments that I've seen Greg make many, many times. So it was really uh uh neat to be part of that team. You know, in addition, we have, you know, a great, we do a lot of work on education, defending, you know, the protections for trans students and LGBTQ students. You know, we know that LGBTQ students ex experience really high rates of harassment and bullying and discrimination. And Paul Castillo heads up that, that great work that's being done on that front on so many levels. You know, I know in partnership with Reed Smith and, and a lot of other folks, so too many issues to really dig deep into. But I've been here for four years. I came in 2017 and I've been really proud of the work that we've done in beating back the nonstop attacks that we saw during the Trump administration. You know, whether it's a transmit ban or the at least six and at least six lawsuits filed against the health and human services agency that really went out of their way to target LGBTQ folks and, and uh so many other issue areas that we've done and continue to work on. So I'm very proud to be part of the organization, Lambda Legal. You know, I, I think that, you know, we're not, we're not as well recognized as some of our sister groups, but I'm, I'm very, very proud of the work that we've done and are doing. 

Iveliz: You know, II I used to be a member of the LGBT litigators round table and I'm not sure if that exists anymore. But I remember every time I would go to the meetings and the little summit circumferences they would have, I was always so surprised at the breadth of work that Lambda Legal was engaged in, you know, all across different facets and, and different issues that are impacting our community. So it was always very impressive to me just to see how broad of a scope that organization has. 

Sasha: Yeah, and we couldn't do it without our partners. You know, the, the different law firms like Reed Smith and so many others, you know, and, and wonderful plaintiffs, you know, if you look back at all the plaintiffs that we've had, they just, you know, just really amazing people, you know, this, the, the, the difficulty of being a plaintiff, everyone hopefully recognizes that it's so challenging to try to have to relive your story and to, and to continually, you know, deal with that trauma and to provide that leadership is, is really amazing. So I want to recognize them as well. But yeah, thank you. 

Alan: That's amazing, Sasha. You know, the last few years in LGBTQ plus rights has really been something of a roller coaster ride. You know, 2015, we get Obergefell achieve marriage equality. 2016, Trump gets elected and we go through so many years as you've already referenced of, of just abysmal reactions to the LGBTQ plus community. Um and then we get Bostock and then we get elected progressive administration and then we get to 2021 which so many have now, you know, identified as a record breaking year for anti LGBTQ plus legislation. Um much of it in the, in the state legislatures, but also some in the federal level as well. I'm just wondering if you can talk us through what, what your thoughts are as to whether these bills that are, that are coming in. Number one, sort of how they're classified, what, what, what's happening. But also what is your, your take on are their reaction to the progressive policies of the Biden administration to the advances that the community has made over the years? Just sort of what's your, what's your overarching analysis of where we are? 

Sasha: Yeah. Thanks Alan. And this is just my own opinion, you know, so it's usually probably better to stick to the facts. But I, you know, I, I, if I'm going to speculate, I would say that, you know, I think, hey, this is for trans people specifically, I think that the saying about first they ignore you, you know, then they laugh at you, then they fight you and then you win is true here in the sense that the rising visibility of trans rights and trans people who are more and more living authentically around the country and being accepted by the family and friends has sparked a backlash and I think that this is part of that and part of the process of two steps forward, one step back. And I do think, I, I do agree with you that I think part of this is also state legislators thumbing their nose at the, The, what they view as the Biden administration's priorities. So I think that, yeah, those are probably all aspects of this, but I think that the, that there are positive sides to this, you know, that if we were talking specifically about the state legislation this year, you know, we have, you know, unfortunately seen some bills pass and there have been a record number that have been introduced, but a record number have been defeated as well and, and thanks large part to, you know, some amazing grassroots advocacy that's been happening on the on the on the ground level from so many advocates across the country and families. And I don't know if folks saw that heartbreaking, you know, video of a dad of a trans girl testifying in, in Missouri, but it was deeply moving and recommend folks go see it. But that's kind of, that's something that's been happening across the country. So I think that this has been, you know, an opportunity for more coalition building and organizing that's been happening on the ground, but also hopefully a growing awareness and of the humanity of, of trans people specifically. But it definitely is traumatic for sure. But I think those are some of the political aspects of, of what's happening. 

Alan: And one of the things that I really want to commend Lambda Legal’s work for as well is reengaging the community in this fight. You know, after the Obergefell decision, I think a lot of people just took a deep sigh of relief and thought, wow, we finally made it marriage equality. But it's been such an interesting uh progression to see, as you say, the visibility of the fight for trans rights and, and reminding people that marriage equality wasn't what it was all about that, that there is, there is still a lot, a lot left to fight for. 

Sasha: Yeah. You know, and as we sit and wait for the Supreme Court to issue its decision in the Fulton case, you know, I think that, you know, um opponents of equality have stopped, you know, they're not, they haven't stopped fighting marriage equality in the sense that they are still seeking to water it down and create skim milk marriage in, in many parts of the country. But where they can't do that, they have stepped up attacks to, you know, create, you know, gaping religious exemptions and, and non-discrimination protections in every way that they can. And I think that's deeply disturbing and people should be very, very concerned about that because that would create a two tiered system, you know, in our country that would place LGBTQ people as a community as second class citizens and people should be infuriated about that and concerned and, and hopefully mobilized in response to, you know, some of those proposed bills as well and we've seen some of them pass like in Arkansas with regard to health care workers. So maybe I should clarify. That was a bill that was introduced and passed, that would give latitude to health care providers to turn away people from giving care to people if they, if it violates their, their personal religious beliefs. 

Iveliz: So, you know, we talked a little bit about these infringements on uh LGBTQ rights and in particularly trans rights, you know, what is the current impact if these bills pass? And what's the current impact currently for these bills being introduced? You know, aside from the legal ramifications, I would imagine that this is incredibly demoralizing to have to as an LGBTQ person myself, as a non-binary person. I know the feeling of feeling like the world is out to get you and, and I, I want to get a sense of, you know, are you seeing that impact with the clients that you're serving? 

Sasha: Yeah, 100% you know, um that was such a great point. Um Iveliz that, you know that um just the introduction of these bills is harmful in the sense that, you know, it, it creates this conversation about trans people that's very negative and non-binary people is very negative and we already know that trans students because most of these bills target trans kids, and we know that most of the kids experience really high rates of bullying and discrimination like I said earlier already. And so these bills, we know, for example, when there was a Trump administration attack, we saw the numbers of calls that were being made into the trans lifeline, which is a support phone line for people spike. And we know that, you know, um these bills that target trans people and try to separate them, you know, from their peers will continue to place heightened scrutiny and place them in the spotlight in a really harmful way. Uh And then if the bills do pass, you know, of course, there's the immediate harm, you know, of being denied the ability to participate on their sports teams or, you know, to be able to obtain the care that they need that every other kid is able to get for other conditions and those direct harms. But I think that, yeah, either way, just the introduction of these bills and the harmful rhetoric that comes with them. And, you know, I have noticed in, in the last few years, you know, the, the rhetoric rhetoric in my opinion had been toned down somewhat and there were, you know, the opponents of equality has started to take a what I view as a more sophisticated bigotry approach, you know, to, to, to try to soften the way they talk about trans people, but not this year. This year, I've seen them come out just throwing punches and, and talking about trans people in ways that I haven't heard in a long time and deeply, deeply concerning ways that, you know, will lead to great harm even if these bills aren't, aren't passed. 

Iveliz: No, absolutely. I spent a good time of my life in foster care and, and imagine being a queer kid in foster care where everyone's trying to put you in boxes. And I remember not feeling, you know, stable, not feeling safe, not feeling understood and that severely impacted my mental health, right? And then it's still some of these things that I'm working through as a as a, you know, I think a relatively well adjusted adult now. So certainly, I think the impact on youth in particular is something that we should all be thinking about and we should all be trying to figure out ways to support these folks because it does matter to see yourself represented. It does matter to have your identity affirmed. 

Sasha: That's an important point because these are, you know, long term negative outcomes, you know, both economic and health care and so many other aspects for these kids. 

Alan: You know, and, and to just to do, tell him what Iveliz said, especially with our youth, feeling out of place in one's own body is hard enough, but having to receive this constant flow of negative messaging from society is just unbelievably harmful and painful. And it's, it's something that people who care about people need to recognize is, is an important thing to stand up against. You know, we, we, we mentioned a little bit about the legislation that has been going on, Sasha that in the, in the multiple states and for anyone who's not familiar, it is, it is a true parade of horribles, the legislation that has come out. But the, but this year, it seems like every time we think that they can't go any lower, they seem to find a way. And I want to just open up a discussion a little bit about one particular instance in the state of Texas House bill 1399. One that deals specifically with the ability of parents to provide medical affirming care to trans their own trans children. Can you talk a little bit about that bill and, and how Lambda is Lambda Legal is responding to that with its advocacy? 

Sasha: Yeah, absolutely. So the bill has not moved forward, you know, and so, you know, we, we've seen good signs that the legislature is coming to an end there, but who knows, you know, they might have a special session. So, you know, we're continuing to stay vigilant and to respond as needed. But basically, in a, so the bill would sanction any medical providers that provide transition related health care to kids seeking care for, for gender dysphoria and we're really talking about puberty blockers here, uh, specifically, and, you know, that can have such a disastrous effect on, on trans people in their lives, talking about long term consequences. You know, I'm a perfect example. If I had been able to obtain the care that I needed at that age, I would have had a very different life. Um, you know, I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that this is really important care for people. And you know, the bill uh almost begs for an equal protection lawsuit in the sense that they call out the fact that this care will continue to be provided for kids with other conditions. We've seen this in similar legislation across, across the country. So it's, it's, it's really uh uh insulting in, in many ways but deeply harmful. And we, you know, unfortunately, in parts of the country where these bills have introduced, we've heard from parents who are considering moving out of the state because this care is life saving care and, and if they can't get it and their, their providers are criminalized for providing it, they will have no other option if they care deeply about their kid. Can you imagine being a parent and having a treatment available that the medical community, the vast, there's no reputable, the American Academy for Pediatrics, which has over 67,000 pediatricians as part of the organization, you know, highly recommends this care and, and, and has written multiple statements denouncing the legislation like HP 1399. And that's, it's the endocrine society agrees and, you know, there's the American Medical Association, you know, so the, the only people that are arguing that this care isn't medically necessary are the state legislators which last I checked, you know, don't have medical degrees or any expertise in this issue area. So that's deeply frustrating. But to answer your question with regard to what we're doing, which is, I know a question on everybody's lips here. Lambda Legal is through the leadership in our Southern regional office. And Shelly Skene and Paul Castillo and Avatara Smith-Carrington and so many other folks have, have really stepped into the breach here and Avery Belyeu, sorry, uh done amazing work in working with our policy director, Jenny Pizer and, and developing, you know, really smartly worded letters opposing legislation and laying out the, the framework and the arguments, you know, that really clarify why this legislation would, would violate the law. You know, we've seen from other, you know, from foia requests and other document requests, you know, that state legislators recognize, you know, that this is something that is clearly unconstitutional. So I think that making those arguments is, is really, really important and, and going down and providing direct testimony is also important. So, um you know, we've been watching and working in coalition with a number of amazing organizations in Texas to beat back these bills. There's a, a huge coalition of folks, you know, including tent and equality, Texas, of course, and the ACLU of Texas and so many others. So we continue, like I say, to stay vigilant to defeat this if it rises up again. But uh so far we've been able to keep it down and, you know, again, it would just stand to cause, you know, enormous harm and it's completely unhinged and unmoored from medical uh from, from actual science and medicine and from the law. So it's uh and it isn't, it isn't about policy because, you know, this is a part of a whole wide range as we've already talked about of bills targeting transgender people and transgender youth specifically. So clearly in my view, animus based and unsound policy. So yeah, we'll stop there. 

Iveliz: Thanks. You know, and I think that that's there's another side of that in terms of, we know that, you know, trans folks already face an extreme amount of discrimination when they try to access medical services. And so you have a large population, particularly in rural areas where people have limited access to providers. If, if the provider in their area is refusing to provide them services, they really don't have much of a recourse. And so these life of these life saving treatments, these life saving medical care is often already not provided to them for discriminatory reasons. And now you introduce something like this, which certainly affirms these discriminators, Right? But also it gives them less of a recourse because now it would be criminal for any doctor who would want to make sure they're providing this care from providing it. So, I think, you know, it's, it's already, it just makes a, a bad problem increasingly worse. Right? It makes, it, it gives a, a red stamp on discrimination because that's what it is. Right?

Sasha: Exactly. 

Iveliz: Now, um, I know we talked about these anti trans legislation specifically in the context of medical care. But as we know, right, there are several other states have introduced other anti trans bills that target things like education ID restrictions and so many more. Would you provide some examples of these other attempts to limit transgender rights? And how has Lambda Legal responded?

Sasha: Yeah, I think the main one is the attacks on, on trans athletes and you know, unfortunately we've seen, you know, several of these bills pass and what they seek to do is to create policies that would categorically bar trans students from ever participating in accordance with their gender identity. Sometimes this conversation gets muddled and confused with, you know, what, what standards should be appropriate for, for participating and talking about the Olympic standard or the NCAA standard. But that's not the issue here. That's not the, that's not the policy that's being introduced here. The policies that's being introduced is a, is a policy that's, that would categorically bar any trans athlete from ever participating in accordance with their gender identity. So that means they wouldn't be able to participate. They're not gonna trans girl is a trans girl. She's not going to participate in a boy team just like a gay man isn't going to marry a woman if there's not marriage equality. So it's just a, you know, and that's not my argument. That's an argument that was made in the Idaho preliminary injunction and joining the law that was passed there in the middle of the pandemic that sought to do something similar by prohibiting trans folks from participating. And you know, in addition, over 60,000 trans kids can already participate and have been participating for decades. You know, the LA unified school district is the largest school district in the country. And trans kids have been playing sports there without incident for many, many years. So this isn't, you know, these speculative arguments. It reminds me of the trans military ban. You know, there's all these fears that these legislators raise about what could happen is undermined by the actual reality of the experience of trans people participating in sports. So Lambda in partnership with the ACLU have moved forward with at least one challenge already. And that's in West Virginia, we filed a lawsuit last week and have a really amazing plaintiff that is speaking out against this issue and representing, you know, similarly situated trans folks in, in her state, we are confident that that will move forward in a, in a favorable direction. But, you know, again, you know, the just the spotlight of, you know, placing, you know, such heightened scrutiny on trans kids is just really, really harmful one other thing, you know, and this isn't the main harm here, but I will flag it because I think it's important to note that, you know, bills like this, that target trans kids. You know, whether it's bathroom ban bills or bills like this, I always have the the unintended consequence of targeting any, especially girl that is gender non conforming. They don't have to be a transgender girl, they'll be he placed under heightened scrutiny and, and and experience harassment and bullying because of these awful policies that are being trying, trying to be implemented. So that's those are some of the things that are doing that we're doing. There's there have been bills that have tried to um restrict people's ability to amend their identity documents. We know that as you probably talked about in the name and gender clinic that happened, you know, having accurate ID is so important in people's lives. If you think about all the times you have to pull out your ID and whether it's at the airport, you know, going to a bar, going to your bank, it's just nonstop that we have to show ID. And if you don't have ID that matches who you are, you end up experiencing a lot of harassment and being turned away at many points. 

Alan: Sasha, one of the things that, that, you know, it's, it's becomes obvious when we talk about this, how difficult it is to fight on 50 different fronts. I know we're not necessarily doing it because luckily we have some progressive states that, that don't have these legislative battles going on. But one of the things that we've seen happen over the past few years that has been successful is when we can get federal laws and federal case rulings that provide a broader spectrum of protection for the LGBTQ plus community that tends to bring even nonprogressive states along Um and at least put, put some, some parameters around what they're able to do. Are there any things that we need to be listening to watching for on the federal level that could help to advance the, the overall interests of the community?

Sasha: Yeah, I think there's a, you know, on the policy front, you know, the Biden administration has been very aggressive, happily, surprisingly, in a good way, aggressive and, and clarifying, you know, the Bostock decision and the executive order that was issued on the first day of the Biden Harris administration asking the agencies to, you know, come back within 100 days to issue, you know, how they're going to implement Bostock. So that was really helpful and we've already started to see positive steps forward in that direction. You know, that Department of Education has asked for a request for information to move forward with rulemaking to implement enforcement mechanisms and actual regulations that clarify the protections for LGBTQ folks as it relates to Bostock. So that's, that's really helpful. I think we'll see more and more of that. Hopefully we'll see some enforcement mechanisms, you know. So, you know, people that are bringing complaints in parts of the country with some of these bills, you know, we'll start to see them being investigated and managed by the, by the administration. There's many other things that they're doing as well. So we don't have time to go into each of them. But I think on the litigation front, a thing to watch is that there was an oral argument with regard to the preliminary injunction that was issued in the Idaho case, I mentioned a while ago. So hopefully we'll see a decision coming out of the ninth Circuit soon, you know, on that question because that will hopefully provide some deterrent to, you know, any other states, at least in the ninth circuit who are considering, you know, similar laws and will be, you know, a deterrent for folks in other states to recognize. You know, unfortunately, you know, I've done a lot of work on, on courts we've seen in the last four years. A lot of what I view are, you know, very clearly, folks who have been nominated and confirmed, who have a long history of opposing LGBTQ protections that have been placed on the surrogate courts around the country. So, you know, the Biden administration has moved forward to address some of that with some really fair minded constitutionalists that will be able to uphold the rule of law. But I'm, I am deeply worried in other parts, you know, including parts of the country, including the Fifth Circuit, for sure. 

Alan: Yeah, I practice in the fifth Circuit a great deal and I can, I can echo and affirm everything that you're saying about the dangers that exist on that court right now. 

Iveliz: So Sasha, we appreciate you joining us today. And I think before we end, I really want to give you an opportunity to tell our listeners what are some of the ways that they can support all of the efforts that you're making to advance LGBTQ rights?

Sasha: Yeah, I mean, I would remiss that, I mean, I feel awkward saying this but I, I think it's really important to, you know, ask folks who are listening that are that care about these issues to financially support organizations like Lambda Legal. You know, that's how we continue to do this work and to fight these fights. And it's really important that we have that funding to keep, keep moving forward in the right direction. So that would be one way, I think another way would be to continue. I, I think that, you know, this is my own personal interest. I, I, you, well, two things, one would be to continue to educate friends and family. I think there's so much misinformation and mythology about trans and non-binary folks and, and so much education that's needed where a much smaller population than the LGB population. So as much education as folks can provide to their community about, you know, humanizing trans folks and dispelling some of these, you know, myths that are, you know, put out into the world and especially in this moment where they, you know, that rhetoric has been ramped up to such a dangerous point that it's really having an impact and a harmful impact on trans kids. So I think that now is if you're, if you're ever going to speak up now is the time and to continue to, to do that, another piece of this, I think is, is the state legislators, you know, I think state legislators need to hear from more folks. You know, I think that they are often overlooked and I think that the harm that they've caused in a lot of parts of this country are, are really, really, really devastating. And I think there should be more of an intentional spotlight, you know, on those elections and, and some of the voting records of these folks that have, have really caused so much, so much damage. So those are three things that I would recommend. 

Alan: That's fantastic, Sasha and I just want to make a moment of personal privilege to say thank you for all the work that you are personally doing and that Lambda Legal is doing for the LGBTQ community. Um As I said, I've been involved with Lambda Legal for, for many, many years. I know the work that is being done, it's important and it's, it is impactful. I also wanna thank you Iveliz for all the work that you're doing in the community and in the firm to advance the rights of LGBTQ plus individuals. Sasha last year, just for your information, Iveliz did a wonderful uh presentation during Pride Month um on the use of pronouns and some cultural competency around gender, non conforming non-binary individuals. And it's, it's a project that, that Reed Smith has been committed to for several years making sure that we're pushing that information out. And like you say, education is the key, it's, it's the key that unlocks so many doors. And so I wanna thank both of you for the opportunity to be here this, this morning and, and also for all the work that you're doing. 

Iveliz: And Alan thank you for all of your advocacy and your leadership with PRISM, but also for your mentorship that you've provided to countless people, whether they're LGBT or from other underrepresented backgrounds, uh your allyship in those instances and your advocacy for our community is really commendable. So thank you for that. And again, Sasha, thank you so much for joining us. It has been such a privilege to co-host with Alan and have you be our guest. So again, thank you for all the work that you're doing. And for listeners, Lambda Legal website is lambdalegal.org. So please donate, pay attention, get involved and advocate and support. So, thank you all. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean, and reedsmith.com. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. 

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