Inspiring leaders: Jason Hazlewood

Continuing our Inspiring Leaders series, this episode features Pittsburgh Office Managing Partner Jason Hazlewood. Jason shares his journey to leadership at the firm, from associate to office managing partner and membership on the Executive Committee. He describes his four core themes for leadership, including an emphasis on equity of opportunity for all lawyers and personnel; elevation of the firm’s position in the local community; promotion of positive corporate citizenship and unity in the region; and the enhancement of the office’s culture and communications. He also shares how he stays grounded and maintains a positive outlook on life.

Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

John: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. It's great to be with everyone. As usual, we're joined by our co-host Iveliz Crespo. Hey, Iveliz.

Iveliz: Hi, John.

John: So it's so great here. We're, we're, we're doing a new series called Inspiring Leaders. And today just really privileged to have one of my favorite people at Reed Smith. Maybe I shouldn't say that so so openly, but, but it's, it's true. So I just gonna say it that, that Jason Hazlewood is really one of my favorite people at Reed Smith and just an inspiring leader. Uh For those of you who may not know uh Jason, we're hoping to introduce him to you. He's the managing partner of our Pittsburgh office and just an amazing, amazing person. Jason, welcome to the podcast.

Jason: Hey, John and Iveliz thank you so much for having me here today. I really appreciate it. It's great to be here with you both.

John: So, Jason,  as you know the, the title of our podcast is uh Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. And I got to tell you, I've been so proud to, to witness your advancement in the firm. You know, first I know you joined as an associate. Uh then you made non-equity partner, then you made equity partner and now you're the managing partner of our Pittsburgh office. And I know that you also served on our on Reed Smith’s executive committee. But let's talk about, you know, you the person, Jason. Uh So tell us a little bit about your, your story, your background, your journey, you know how, how you became the person you are today.

Jason: Sure. So I'm originally here from Pittsburgh. I grew up where uh primarily my mother and my aunt were both secretaries at big law firms. And that's really how I got interested in the law. Now, it was definitely a bait and switch sort of situation where my mother primarily work for litigators. And only to tell me about the cool stuff, the sexy stuff that those, those folks did. She never said, hey, my guy was here till 2 a.m. reviewing documents. You know, I didn't, I didn't get that news until I was actually a first year, second year, third year associate myself. But at that point, it was too late, I was locked in. Um, and so really, that's how I got interested in the law and really never wavered. I went to W&J here in Pittsburgh for undergrad, went to UVA in Charlottesville for law school. Came home, started my practice at another firm here in town and then came to Reed Smith in 2006. And I've been here ever since, you know, you guys haven't been able to shake me since that point. So here we are today.

John: No. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, it's so great. And I, and I remember, um, you know, you tell me before that you played football in, in a small college. So I played, uh played football at W&J. I was fortunate enough to be captain there and kind of a leadership role in my senior year. Of course, that was, you know, many moons ago, you know, when I was 21 and now being 42 that being directly half my lifetime ago is quite depressing actually.

Iveliz: You know, Jason, I'm a firm believer that oftentimes our own personal experiences really shape who we are. I think that's very true for me. I say my upbringing, my family, my circumstances really inform who I am, how I practice. You know, whether as an attorney or as a DEI practitioner. And I just want to know from your perspective, what are some of the ways that your own experiences, maybe being a first generation lawyer, maybe being a man of color, how have those lived experiences, really shaped your professional approach to the law and serving your clients?

Jason: Sure. So I think being a diverse lawyer myself, a black lawyer, I think has really helped me in that I've seen it firsthand that not always the sort of one size fits all approach works for everybody, right? Like I feel like there are a lot of folks who have really good intentions, but I don't necessarily know the way to approach it. So everyone tries a sort of one size fits all. Like, hey, we've done this for a vast majority of the folks and it's really worked so they should try this way for everyone. And if it doesn't work for those other folks, then perhaps there's something wrong with the folks rather than the way we approach it, which of course we all know isn't true. Um And so the way I've tried to use that in my practice is that looking at clients the same way, you know what I do for one client, just because we had, you know, what I'd like to think is wild success with this matter, doesn't mean it's going to work the other way. And frankly, if it doesn't work the other way, it's not that other client's fault, it's my fault because I'm the one who's supposed to be adaptive. I'm the one who's supposed to sort of create the service and provide the help that they need for them to be successful. You know, what I've done with other people or other things really isn't important. It's what is necessary to make this case, this person, this client successful. And so I've tried to adapt that, you know, having been on the receiving end of it, you know, so many times before. 

Iveliz: I really love that. I think, you know, I've been a professor at law school, I've, you know, been someone who's worked often with interns. And one of the things I often say is that, you know, what they don't teach you in law is exactly what you're describing, right? You go to law school, you learn, you know, you may learn the civil rules of procedure, you may learn about evidence, but they don't really teach that cultural competency piece, right? Which is taking your clients as they are. And so I think it's an incredibly important tool, one of which I think all lawyers should really embody, right? Because um I think what you're saying, what you're saying and how you approach clients really does help you create better business outcomes for those clients, better solutions for those clients. And so I really appreciate you highlighting that because I think it's often one of those things that, that young lawyers in particular don't understand about the practice of law, you know, and I think in the practice of law, I've often felt like there's such rigidness and so it's really important that, you know, as lawyers, as younger lawyers enter the profession, they keep that in mind right. That you should treat your client how they want to be treated, not how you want to be treated. Right.

Jason: Right. And look, I, I'll be the first to admit, I certainly didn't understand this as a young lawyer. So, you know, what you see now in front of you is definitely a vastly different version of what it was when I was 25. Uh You know, I was definitely one of the worst people ever who got enamored when they put that esq after the name and thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. Uh And, you know, I thought, you know, as long as I'm winning cases, that's all that matters. You know, that the client service piece is really kind of an ancillary thing. And it wasn't until, you know, I got older and had, had, was fortunate to have great mentors to tell me like, no, like that's, that's the primary thing. You know, there, there are lots of people who can try a case or do a deal or do this or do that. Uh You know, a lot of those skills are very similar, but it's the client service piece and the, the sort of tailoring your advice and your service to what they need and what they want, that's what really makes clients come back to you. And that's, you know, clients, whether they be outside the firm where as a young lawyer, your clients typically are the other lawyers at the firm. And, and, but the message is the same and that's something it took me a while to learn, but I definitely learned it now.

John: What really resonates with me, Jason is when you said, um, you know, not one size fits all. Um, what I immediately thought of, of, well, that's equity, right is that people have different experiences and we've got to, you know, be equitable in terms of in principles of equity and how we work with people, how we develop uh people, how we support people. But what you just said was that I not quite ever translated equity into client service, which is completely true. It makes all the sense in the world is that how we work with our clients, they are all different and you know, how we work equitably with them as opposed to, you know, equally as, as, you know, kind of the, the, the, the constant, you know, battle between equity and inequality. So just love that it's just, you know, a new way of looking at things and, and I think it just, it makes equity even more important, more expensive. Um Jason, so, you know, when you were um appointed the managing partner, I noted that you identified four key themes for your leadership. You know, it really struck me as, as, as really fantastic. So I want to share with our audience, those four key pillars that Jason identified. Number one, an emphasis on equity, you know, apropos what we were just talking about, but an emphasis on equity of opportunity for all lawyers and personnel. Number two, elevation of our firm's position in the local community. Number three, the promotion of positive corporate citizenship and unity in the region. And four, the enhancement of the offices, culture and communications. That's just so in line with, with everything that Iveliz and I have talked about all the time and so clearly, you know, you're just such, such a visionary. So tell us a little bit about, you know, your vision and uh why this is important to you.

Jason: Sure. So uh you know, as I say here today in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the home of Mr. Rogers, Fred Rogers. Uh many of you will be familiar with one of his quotes to go something to the effect of look for the helpers. Uh when you're ever in a tough situation, there's always people willing to help. So look for the helpers. So the thing that I've kind of taken farther than that or further than that is, well, then you also want to be one of the helpers. So that, that's some of the things I always try to communicate to young lawyers is the fact that you need to look for helpers, but then you should be a helper as well. So if you look at all those four themes that you shared, I feel like that theme of being a helper kind of runs through them all, whether you're talking about helping the community, we're talking about helping your clients or we're talking about helping the employees, you know, the staff and lawyers of Reed Smith, all those principles kind of fit into that kind of rubric one way or another, whether it be through better culture, communications or sort of elevating our platform in the community or being a good corporate citizen, which is all about helping other people. Now, of course, look, you know, we're a major law firm, right? We're not just doing this purely out of good of our heart. We're a for profit business. Uh But, you know, I'd like to think there are lots of things that we actually do that are out of the goodness of our heart. You know, we have a lot of great people who are doing things here who, you know, don't receive any accolades or any compensation and they're strictly doing it because it's the right thing to do. Uh A lot of the folks that we work with, you know, really recognize that, hey, you know, I'm lucky to be here. It's not a matter of, hey, I didn't work hard. Yeah, you worked hard and yes, you're a bright person. Yes, you, you have a lot of skills and talent. So we're not saying you don't deserve to be here. But a lot of folks recognize even despite deserve being here, they're still lucky and, and they want to help other people who might have been less lucky or help people to get luckier so to speak. And so, you know, to me that's just kind of the core theme that if everything comes back to that, you know, the rest will take care of itself.

Iveliz: Absolutely. You know, Jason, one of the things that strikes me when I hear you speak is that I think there's a really big distinction between good lawyers and great lawyers. I think good lawyers, they know the mechanics of law, they know how to practice, they know how to do this, but it takes great lawyers to rise through the ranks like you have. And I'm curious, I know that you've mentioned client service, which I think, you know, is one of those defining things that really distinguishes you from, you know, good lawyers and makes you a great lawyer one of the best at Reed Smith. So I'm curious, other than client service, what are some other skills that you maybe have learned that really helped you, you know, throughout your career to being, you know, the office managing partner in Pittsburgh?

Jason: Sure. And I think so, I answer that a couple of different ways. So the very first one, this bleeds through all the rest of all the rest of the questions and all the sort of rest of ideas here is the idea that you need to ask for help and you have to realize you need help. Uh, I, I told you earlier, I was a little more stubborn in my younger days and I, I used to back then equate scholastic success with experience and knowledge. Right? Like I'm getting A's in all these classes. I must know everything. Wrong, wrong. But it took me a while to figure that out that no matter how brilliant you think you are, no matter any great grades you get, there are so many people, especially in your twenties and, and even in my forties, there are so many people who just know so much more than you because they've lived it. They've already been down that road. One of my mentors used to always tell me Glenn Mahone, you know, Jason, I don't know everything in the world, but the chances are I know more than you and it's not because I'm any smarter or any better, but it's just because I've been around longer, I've done this 35 more years than you. And so once you accept that and take that into your, in your heart and, and you are willing to now ask for help and kind of get advice. It just makes everything so much easier. You know, I liken it to, you're fumbling around in a dark room bouncing off every wall, don't know what the heck is going on and someone comes in and flicks the switch on like, oh, wow, this is, this is way easier. This is way better. I should be doing this the whole time. That's the same thing.

So Iveliz to answer your question, how do you get to those skills? The first thing was to realize like, I don't have them all and I need to ask people for help and hope that I find good people, which I was fortunate enough to do to give me the advice. And that was, that was a huge sort of epiphany that you're not going to do it alone and to more specifically answer your question, I think just sort of relating to people, sort of management and realizing that as I got more senior and now I'm sort of the senior lawyer in the team managing the junior lawyers, not everyone reacts the same way. You know, some people need what I call the silk glove. Some people need the hammer and you have to figure out who needs what and who responds to what and who, you know, gets motivated by what things, you know, some people, you know, really like it when you sort of send an email around and kind of tell how well he did. Other people don't like that. And, you know, same thing when you're following up with people. Some people, you know, they, they, they need sort of the constant prodding. Other people are like, hey, just tell me what to do. And I'll get to you then. So it's really about kind of figuring out what motivates different people. And then again, doing that, that sort of chameleon act on my part of trying to figure out, all right, you know, this person needs this, this person needs that. It's not a one size fits all.

So it's, it's just about sort of leading the team and, and, you know, oftentimes I feel like the leader of the team is the one who's responsible for the success or the failure of the team, right? And so if you put somebody in a position where they don't have a great chance to be successful and then they fail, that's not their fault, that's your fault, right? Like if, if, if you were building a marathon team to run a marathon and you put me on your team, that's your fault that. I’m not going to do well and that's on you. I'm not, you know, I'm not built to run marathons. And so I try to do that sort of in my management style and, and building team style, figure out, OK, who has the tools to be successful? How can I put them in place to be successful? And rather than trying to fit the, the square peg into the round hole. 

John: Once again, just like equity and play, you know, in terms of, you know, the teams that you're building and, and the like. You know, I love Jason, you said, you know, you just reach out for help, that you're not gonna do it alone. And you, and you talked about, uh you mentioned Glenn Mahone another just great, great person um that uh we all, we all cherish. So thinking about your and role models, sponsors and the like, ask for help. You, ask for help for these folks, but uh how they influenced your career.

Jason: So I think they've influenced my career a great deal. Um You know, I'm wildly fortunate to be in a position I am and I say it that I've been lucky to find these folks who have invested in me so deeply. Now. Of course, look, I'm still a braggart at heart and, you know, I'm, I'm happy to tell you that I'm a hard working bright guy, but there's lots of them and there's lots of them that didn't get the investment from other people that I've gotten. So that's why I say that I'm really lucky because I've had so many people and I already violated my rule by naming Glenn because I don't ever want to name because there are so many folks I know if I start naming people that I'm going to be kicking myself for all the people I forgot once we hang up. But let's just say that it's a, it's a very long list of people who have invested in me and not only invested in me in sort of a way of hey, I like that Jason guy. I hope he makes it. But more of a, hey, I like that Jason guy. How can I help him make it? You know, how can I push him in front of certain opportunities? How can I, when he comes in my office frustrated, how can I stop what I'm doing and give him a half hour, an hour to really walk him through this and, and create an environment where he wants to come back in here.

You know, there are a lot of people and, you know, a lot of these folks and this is why I tell especially diverse lawyers, you know, a lot of these folks aren't going to look anything like you. Now, of course, there are plenty of the mentors that do look exactly like me and do have sort of personal experience of some of the things that I go I have been through, but there are lots of them that don't have the faintest clue about that. They haven't, they don't look anything like me. They haven't been doing any of that, but they are still willing and, and one thing to sort of hear what I have to say and give me the best advice that they can and advocate for me and give me opportunities. And so that's why I, I tell people that, you know, anybody who wins the lottery is lucky. Right. And I think we can all agree with that. But if I buy 10,000 tickets and you buy one ticket, then I put myself in a position to be luckier than you over the long haul. And so I think by consistently exposing yourself and kind of putting yourself out there to find mentors, you know, you're gonna get luckier over the long haul because you're giving yourself more opportunities for one of those to one or more of those to kind of to click.

John: Absolutely great, great advice. Although for our listeners, I wouldn't encourage people that gambling is, is, is an addictive thing. So don't necessarily spend $10,000 on lottery tickets, maybe $5 is a good amount.

Iveliz: So, you know, Jason, I, I once heard someone say that the road to success to fulfillment to happiness is not without its bumps along the way. And so I'm curious, you know, there are a lot of junior lawyers, there are a lot of people considering law school that listen to this podcast. How have you navigated some of the challenges you face? And what advice would you give to either younger attorneys or people about to enter the legal industry on reaching? What success is, whatever that is to you, whether it's fulfillment, whether it's happiness, what advice can you give them?

Jason: Sure. I'd say the first thing to do. And again, I know it's harder when you're young. But as you get older, you realize you just have to realize failure. That's a, that's a win. Not an if right, like that's coming, like you're gonna make some big mistake, you're gonna have something that you really regret happened, uh where you look back and like, man, I really wish I could have done this differently and I certainly have no exception to that rule. You know, I've had more than my fair share of those types of things where I'm like, man, that really was not well thought out on my part. Or man, I really wish I had done that or I wish I wouldn't have reacted in the moment, the, the way that I did and I think that the best way to, to navigate those is two things. One,to realize they are definitely coming no matter what and they're gonna continue to coming until you are no longer on the planet. So not to be so shocked every time they happen. And two, I think if you accept them when they happen and you take responsibility, you know, I, I, I've been fortunate enough to, to be able to a position where I, I, you know, I'm able to say, hey, look, I did X, you know, I messed this up. Here's what I think we should do to fix it. And here's what I propose that to show you that this won't happen again, whether it be talking to when I was a junior lawyer, talking to senior lawyers or clients or whatever else. I think that goes a long way with a lot of people that the accountability of it and sort of proposing a plan to do it and being forthright. You know, there's nothing worse, I'll tell all young lawyers, there's nothing worse than when you make me play detective to figure out what you did wrong. Right. Like, you know, and so that just makes me angry when it takes all this time. You just told me because we're on the same team, same thing with the client, we're all on the same team, we're all striving towards the same goal. So I'd say, you know, it's really important to take accountability for when you make a mistake and then kind of propose a solution to fix it and how it won't happen this way going forward.

And the second thing is just, you know, while I say failure is inevitable, they are, you know, they still should be the exception rather than the rule, right? And so being consistently excellent, all those other times builds up i a great deal of credibility where people are like, oh, look, Jason is normally pretty solid, right? You know, we've had him for 10 cases here. These nine cases went really, really well, this 10th case, uh you know, that wasn't his finest moment, but, you know, there's a reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. So I think if you're consistently excellent most of the time people and you're accountable when you do make a mistake. People are much more willing to say, hey, look, this guy is human. Uh Let's, let's understand the mistake and let's move forward. So that would be my biggest thing, accountability and otherwise being excellent.

John: So inspiring such, such a absolutely spot on, you know, that's, that's why this is called Inspiring Leaders. So thinking about the leaders in our audience, that's, you know, for, for the junior folks, you know, hearing that. But for the junior folks and the leaders in the audience here, Reed Smith, we've been spending a lot of time on training and, and discussions around inclusive leadership. What does inclusive leadership mean to you?

Jason: I think it's the idea and it keep, keeps coming back to the central theme of, I don't know everything right. And I'm, I'm more than happy to tell you, I don't know everything. And I think sometimes you see when leaders kind of get those positions, they all of a sudden get this sort of false sense of, oh I must be it, right. I I must know it all and I must be the guy or the gal and I think that's just the wrong way to go about it. I think, you know what I know and what Iveliz knows, what John knows, relative to what everybody else on the planet knows is very small compared to what everybody else knows. Right. And so I think the idea of inclusive leadership is making sure you're getting everyone's voice. Now, of course, in any leadership position, not every decision you make can be a decision by committee, right? Like sometimes you just have to be decisive and move the ball forward. But there are definitely plenty of times where there's an opportunity to get input from a lot of different people, a lot of different blind spots. So if you start from the premise that, hey, I have a lot of blind spots here are the ones that I think I have. So let me make sure I'm getting input from those folks who probably see, uh, you know, more clearly those spots. And then what else? I think that's, that's really a way to bring everybody about.

Now again, you know, as the leader, you're the person who saddled with the ultimate decision. But I think you just put yourself into a position to make much better decisions when you get input from a lot of different views, right? And, and I think especially we talk about diversity. Diversity includes everyone, right? Like if you had a group of me and four other black men, like that's the diverse group, that's, we're all the same. And so you wouldn't say that group is 100% diverse. It's not. So we need everybody, you know, and that includes, of course, you know, our white men and women partners, like we need everybody in the, in the boat to have a complete view. So I think that's really important. You want people from all levels of the firm when you're making decisions that are gonna affect everybody in the firm. And so that's the way I try to go about it.

Iveliz: No, I think, I think that's great. And um you know, you've been talking a lot about inclusive leadership and you know, how are some of the ways that you can be inclusive and you're providing a lot of guidance there. But I'm curious if you could share with us, what do you think some mistakes are that some leaders make, right, end up, you know, having people look at them like, wow, that really wasn't inclusive or? Wow, that really wasn't my idea of what leadership is. I'm curious if you've seen that, you know, throughout your career or if you have any ideas that you can share of things that people might want to avoid doing.

Jason: Sure. I think it's kind of just the opposite of what I mentioned where it's, you know, someone thinks that it's, it's my way, the highway, right. I'm the, I'm the top guy, the top gal in this position. And so, you know, it's, it's whatever I say goes and this is, uh you know, I'm paid to make these decisions, which is, you know, true to a certain extent, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't benefit a great deal for some other input. Now, look, I, I'll, I'll maybe talk a little out of both sides of my mouth. I've also seen it go bad the other way where you just talk everything to death and you never make a decision, right? Because you're getting too many viewpoints in and you're trying to please everyone. Uh, well, you know, I definitely, you know, talk about equality and equity and trying to make it fair for everyone. Not every decision you're gonna make is gonna make everybody happy and, you know, it's often a fool's errand trying to please everyone. Um So I know again, I'm, I'm sounding a little wishy washy uh where you want to get input from everybody but that like all things has its limits and at some point, you just have to make a decision the best you can on the information you have available. Uh And there's not gonna be any such thing as a perfect decision. We're all just making decisions with the best information that we have. And let's see what happens. 

John: 100%, 100%. Let me shift gears a little bit here. Jason, think about some of your extracurricular activities. I know you serve on a number of boards, uh the boards of neighborhood allies, the Pennsylvania Economy League of Greater Pittsburgh Design Center. Um Your, your, your alma maters, alumni Executive Council. So for our younger folks and for our leaders as well, how have those, you know, extracurricular activities advanced your own leadership in your career as well.

Jason: I think they just provide to be totally gained great learning experiences. And I look at them as such, you know, typically for those types of organizations, the people who are asked to join them are typically leaders or have leadership roles in their own companies or firms or institutions. So basically, you're just taking a group full of leaders and putting them together. And it's just like a giant sort of education where, you know, you can see, see how different people lead a room full of leaders and see, you know, how the different interactions go. And if you go into it with an open mind, of course, you know, we're here to do whatever the organization's business is, whatever that is, that's first and foremost. But other than that, you can really just learn a lot by just being in the room and seeing like, oh, I mean, there's definitely been many times I've been in meetings and someone will phrase something in a certain way and I'll just make a mental note like, oh, I really like that. I'm definitely stealing that. That's another thing. I'm a, I'm a bashed thief of good ideas. You know, when I see something that works, I really like it. You know, I'll definitely steal it and don't me wrong, I'll attribute it to you for like the first six months of the year. But after that, then I just became mine and now I, you know, I drop your attribution and now I'm just a genius who came up with that. But I mean, I think that really, really helps and I would encourage a lot of people to do the same thing.

John: Yeah. Absolutely. I, I say a lot, I have not a lot of great ideas on my own, but I got a lot of ideas that I hear from others that we implement.

Iveliz: I love that. And Jason, you know, one of the things that really strikes me and I see every, almost every week or however often it is you're being quoted in this and being quoted in that. And, you know, you seem like you and I haven't gotten the privilege of really getting to know each other because of this pandemic. But you seem like a really just happy and joyful human being and that's often at odds, right? Because sometimes I'll talk to some leaders that are senior and they just are tired and it's, it's, it's something that I think I can certainly understand. And, you know, we've all had those moments where we have a hard week and we question, why am I doing this? But I, I'm curious because you do give off that, you know, very, you know, roll off the shoulders kind of attitude and outlook on life. You know, how do you stay grounded and how do you manage to accomplish everything that you've accomplished, right, while still maintaining such a positive outlook on life?

Jason: So I'd say I guess the first thing is I'd be glad I'm glad that you don't have my wife on this podcast with you because she probably chime in and say, well, he's not that great at it. You guys only see part of it. It's not all sunflowers and sunshine for the most part. But in all seriousness, I think it's just always coming back to no matter how hard and how stressful the job is. And look, it could be really stressful at times, right? Like I'm not breaking any news with that. Everybody knows that. But realizing, well, what's the alternative? And where are we having this argument? Right? Like we're having this stressful problem at, you know, in AmLaw 100 law firm, the biggest law firm in the city. You know, we're all wildly privileged to be here. And, you know, there are a lot of people who would be thrilled to have my quote unquote problems.

Uh You know, one of my mentors and I already mentioned Glenn, so I'll mention him again. He told me one time, he said, you know, how many people, how many parents would gladly die and go, you know where right now, just so their kids could have one third of what you have and, you know, that, that really sticks with me and, and, and it really, you know, sort of shines a light of like, look how fortunate we are, problems are and I'll give credit to my mother on this one, you know, anytime I'll complain about something like some expense that I don't like about, you know, I had to fix something in my house or the roof or something. Like I was complaining. She's like, that's not a problem. She's like, you have the money to pay for it. You're able to do that because of your job. A real problem is when that goes wrong and you don't know, you have to think about what bill are you not going to pay or how are you going to feed your Children or how are you going to do this? How you, those are real problems like what you have are inconveniences. And so, you know, that's, that's really, I try to come back to no matter how hard and stressful it is, I'm still so wildly lucky and again, through no, you know, account of my own, I've just been, been lucky to get to this point through some hard work and just the benevolence of a lot of other people.

And so given that A, you owe a lot back, right? Too much is given much as much as expected. And then B there should be some appreciation. You're probably like, hey, like this is pretty good. Uh You know, no matter how stressful it is and how angry I get sometimes like this is pretty damn good. This could be considerably worse and I'm wildly fortunate to be in a position so I should act as such. And then frankly, lastly, that's just kind of the way I am. I prefer to be happy. I prefer to be upbeat. You know, I see people who are miserable all the time and it's just like, you know, they're just energy is kind of draining from other people. And, you know, it's like, you know, you sure you could be that way and I'm sure I have my days that I'm like, that don't get me wrong. But I prefer just on the majority of the time to be upbeat because this stuff is short and nothing's guaranteed and this is all fragile and could all go away in the blink of an eye. So might as well enjoy it while it's here.

John: I love that. And Jason, you are truly an inspiring leader. Uh Just this podcast has been amazing and inspiring for me. I've got to tell you so before we close any final thoughts for our listeners.

Jason: Sure, I would just come back to that ultimate theme. You know, that Glenn has pounded into me that people who are senior to you, people who have been around longer than you, they know more than, you know, I know. And that and that will be true from now until, you know, all of us are no longer here. And so it's so much easier, the path is so much easier if you just seek the help that I'll close with the, for that I always give the analogy I give to young lawyers. I tell them, you know, you're, you're about to wander across a minefield and there are two ways to find out where all the mines are. Way one is just wander about and get blown up, time and time and time again. Which like a dumb, dumb I did for many years. Or way two. There's a guy or gal on the other side with a map and all you have to say is, hey, can I see that map? And they'll say, yeah, here you go. And you know, the map doesn't have all the mines, but it's got a lot of them. So which way would you prefer to find out where all the mines are? You know, like an idiot I did the way one for a while but way two is definitely the way to go. So I would, that, that's the message I would leave everybody. Ask for help. There are so many people who have the help and want to give it to you. All you have to do is ask for it. So do that.

John: Thanks Jason. Jason Hazelwood, thanks for coming into our hot podcast. I'm sure our listeners got a lot, a lot out of today's episode.

Jason: Excellent. Thank you so much to you both. I really appreciate it.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean and reedsmith.com.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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