Disclosing diversity

LEADRS and PRISM are Business Inclusion Groups (BIGs) at Reed Smith that represent individuals with disabilities and persons in the LGBTQ+ community, respectively, whose members face a common challenge: the issue of disclosure. Persons in the LGBTQ+ community and those with disabilities – particularly of the non-visible type such as mental illness or neurodiversity – may struggle with publicly disclosing the very aspects that underlie their diversity. That is, people with disabilities and those who identify as LGBTQ+ may struggle with the decision to reveal such information in their workplace for fear of stigma, hostility, judgment, and/or retaliation. According to various studies of persons with disabilities and LGBTQ+ individuals in the legal profession, the concerns they face are similar. The struggle with self-disclosure is one of the reasons that support from management and peers in the workplace – whether through community events, available resources, affinity, or BIGs – is so crucial. Further, this places particular importance on allyship – where people who do not necessarily have a disability or identify as LGBTQ+ become part of the support network. We are delighted to have a number of individuals from PRISM and LEADRS discuss the considerations they have addressed in relation to their journeys regarding self-disclosure, how the landscape in the legal profession has changed, what needs to improve in the future, and how we get there.

Our host Iveliz Crespo is joined by guests Jonathan Andrews, Jessica Parry and Erin Guna.

Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast. Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Iveliz: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Inclusivity Included. I am your host, Iveliz Crespo. This episode will dive into a topic that I'm all too familiar with as both a member of the LGBT community and someone who has various disabilities, and that topic is disclosure. Now, if you've never had to come out at work or your personal life or decide whether it's safe to share your disability, then you may not understand the immense pressure that these decisions can have on individuals, but persons in the LGBTQ community and those with disabilities, particularly those that have non-visible disabilities such as mental illness or neurodiversity may struggle with publicly disclosing these aspects that underlie their diversity, the very things that make them well, them. To unpack this topic I am thrilled to be joined by members of two of Reed Smith Business Inclusion Groups. Jonathan Andrews, associate in the firm's global Entertainment and Media Industry Group based in the London office and Erin Guna Learning and Development manager in our Pittsburgh office are here representing our disability inclusion group called LEADRS. Jess Parry, associate in the firm's global Entertainment and Media Industry Group based in our London office is here representing PRISM, our LGBTQ+ Business Inclusion Group. Thank you all for joining me today. How's everyone doing?

Erin: Great.

Jess: Good, thanks.

Jonathan: Good. Thank you.

Iveliz: You know, thank you so much for joining. You know, this is a very important topic and I think that it's something that a lot of people struggle with and then for those that don't struggle with it, I think it's something they're not really aware of. So, you know, I want to dive right into this topic and, you know, I'll end with some advice that you can give to the audience that's listening, whether it's people that are thinking about disclosing or folks that are thinking about how they can be stronger allies. But before that, I want to get your, your personal stories. And so I'm gonna ask, you know, when did each of you decide to disclose either your disability or your status as an LGBTQ member? at work. We can start with Erin if you don't mind sharing.

Erin: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks so much. It's wonderful to be included in this conversation. Just as way of background about, gosh, 12, 13 years ago, now I was diagnosed with anxiety and panic disorder. It's chronic. So it's chemical. As much as I tried for a few years, to think I could just handle it by myself, I need a little help with medication and different therapy. So I decided pretty soon after joining Reed Smith to be very open about it to disclose it. There's been several opportunities for me to talk openly about it. I feel like I'm so fortunate to work at Reed Smith where, you know, you're, you're almost made to feel empowered to, you know, talk about any challenges that you have. And I just really think it's important. The more that people talk about mental health challenges, I think it hopefully raises the comfort level for others to disclose if they're considering it. But, but more importantly to not feel any embarrassment or shame around mental health challenges. So that's primarily why I decided to disclose and why I'm very, very open about those challenges at work.

Iveliz: You know, I really appreciate you sharing that and I, and I have to agree. I think, you know, for 10 years, I've lived with PTSD and I have never said that out loud to any single person that I work with until I joined Reed Smith. And part of it is because it's, it's a part of the culture, right? That the, the need to hide, it doesn't feel so immense, particularly when everyone else around you, when, when, when a lot of people around you rather are so open about it. And so, and, and talk about these things as if it's commonplace and I think that that really certainly does help. So I appreciate you sharing that, you know, Jess, you know, what are your experiences like with coming out at work? I'd, I'd love to hear that, you know, when did you decide?

Jess: Yeah, for sure. So I guess the one thing to note is also coming out is never really a, a finite process. It's always something that you do on a continuous basis. And I spent most of my education in the closet, so to speak. I did, I wasn't out for the majority of my undergrad and I came out, I was out in law school. In terms of coming out at work, I first came out at Reed Smith during the interview process. So I was involved in the LGBTQ+ student society at my university and I was the president and I gained a lot of transferrable skills in that experience, which I referred to when I was explaining things that I'd, I'd done. So it just felt like a, a natural way to disclose it and to be open about it. After that, I can't really specifically remember how I came out to my different supervisors when I was a trainee. But as I became more involved with PRISM. It's having to come out at work is something that I, I do less because I am so involved in it, but it's definitely something I still do in different spaces. So sometimes at client events or on secondment or, or that sort of thing.

Iveliz: Thank you for sharing that. So it sounds like you made the decision even before joining Reed Smith in the interview to really come out and share that. Wow, that's, that's, that's really awesome. And I, I'm, I'm glad you felt supported enough to share that and comfortable in yourself to share that. Jonathan, would you like to tell us a little bit about, you know, your decision to disclose, you know, when did you decide?

Jonathan: Yeah, of course. So when I was sort of looking for jobs in law, I guess, and sort of thinking about the career that would be right for me I did actually attend quite a few events around disability within law and I found that so somebody who had basically been diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum when I was nine years old, it wasn't really something that I was seen as a stigma to talk about shall we say. My family were very sort of supportive and saw it very much as a sort of something that might bring changes, but also strength in other ways as well part of your identity. So I sort of, until that point, I guess was, I wouldn't, wasn't a man ever to be open as such to disclose, but it was just seen as sort of part of me, I guess. And I didn't really think too much about it and I found that maybe there, there wasn't so much openness at that at that time. It's actually quite a bit of change to happen since then, but, you know, not, not greatly open as I find within law, particularly around autism. And so actually decided that it probably needed, you know, somebody to, to champion that and actually Reed Smith I came to know through some of the, not through those particular events, but through other open days I went to and I could actually see their interest in this area in including those with disabilities, visible and non-visible.

And actually funny enough through sort of, you know, sharing the stories about that and advocating in different ways, managed to link them up with organizations involved in this. So I suppose really, um that was kind of what led me to sort of see the importance of being of, of disclosing disability. And I did that at the interview stage was very much a believer in wanting to put your best foot forward. And that includes in terms of being open about your identity, maybe the different ways as well that, you know, disability might affect you. And, but by sort of taking ownership and being able to describe it yourself. You can explain in more detail how that does impact you in, in positive ways as well as things you may need more assistance with, which, you know, you won't be able to do if you don't talk about it. So that was very much the line that I took. I think that was really helpful to me in terms of being able to be open at that stage.

Also, in terms of seeing the firms that were inclusive and I could see the work that Reed Smith did and got exposed to that very early on. And I should say as well Also that as well as being on the autistic spectrum, I also identify as being bisexual as well. And that was something that I felt very able to be open with when I was applying to Reed Smith, having gone to the many of the open days that, you know, you'd put on meeting people at the firm It was clear that you valued diversity and inclusion and that that wouldn't be something that, you know, would be held against you. If anything, it would be a strength to be able to, to share that and to show that, you know, you were comfortable to be open about who you were. So I very much, you know, was very comfortable like Jess at interview stage being open about those parts of my identity that you otherwise might not see. And you, you know, people might prefer not to be open about, but personally, I was very happy to do so.

Iveliz: Thank you. And, and you know, I think I love that when we're talking about topics like this, it highlights intersectionality and that at any given moment Each and every one of us can hold various identities that intersect and really make us who we are. So, you know, I think oftentimes people who may not have this experience, right, who have never had to think about disclosing may think, you know, what's the big deal here? And I think it's important for us to highlight why we make those decisions. And so, you know, I pose this question to the group and, and whoever feels, you know, like they want to answer, feel free. But why did you make that decision? You know, why was it important to you?

Erin: I think for me, Iveliz, it was because there, in my opinion, it's better, but there's still a lack of understanding about anxiety and panic disorders. And I think the more people who live with those challenges talk about it, the more other people gain an understanding of, of the wide range of what that can mean. I found previously that when somebody finds that out about me, they kind of start to tiptoe around me like, oh my God, this, you know, don't upset Erin. And um you know, the more I talk about like there's different things that might trigger me. And there are different situations that are more challenging for me. And generally, unless I say something to you, you don't need to worry about it. I'm just not ashamed and I'm not embarrassed and I want you to know that this is who I am. That's why I talk about it and that's why I disclosed it just because I think that not only does it help people who don't have mental health challenges, better understand what that means It, it helps people who do, feel more empowered to talk about it to be open about it and to let their colleagues know, you know, their story.

Iveliz: Absolutely. Jess, Jonathan. Do either of you feel like sharing? Why did you make that decision? Why was it important to you?

Jess: Yeah, for sure. There's a few reasons. I think the first one is really about representation and touches a bit on what Erin said as well. A really important thing for me and just coming out generally was representation. It was seeing an experience like mine in a TV show that made me think and realize that I was gay. So I think it's important for people who feel comfortable and able to come out if, if they, they can, that can be that representation for someone else, whether that's in a professional setting or, or otherwise. So if I, if I can do that or help at all, then that's definitely a strong reason for me and then the other part of it is probably a more personal side in that it's not being out is a secret and that takes a lot of energy to manage, I guess or just think about it, there's all these other things that you need to think about or work around and to, to be able to be in a position to kind of not have that being in a secret anymore, just freeze up your mental capacity to do so many other things. And it's really helped in all aspects of my life.

Iveliz: You know, I love that you highlighted that um it's, it can be exhausting to hide parts of yourself. And I don't think people understand that. You know, I want to shift gears a little bit because I think, you know, there may be people listening in who are deciding, you know, they're at a crossroads, right? They're, they're thinking about who they are and what's important to them and they're trying to figure out if it's worth, you know, disclosing at work, what are the benefits, what are the pros and cons? And so I want to get a sense from all of you. Um And I can start with Jonathan, you know, what are the different considerations in play or at play, right when disclosing in the workplace and in your personal life? You know, what does that balancing act look like?

Jonathan: So I think that's a really interesting question. Um and I think when it, so when it comes to the workplace, there's, there's also sort of differences, I suppose in terms of the identity that you're disclosing. So I think around disability, the, topic of adjustment sort of comes in in terms of, you know, you have to be open in order to get the support that you may need or, you know, you might not want to necessarily be open about a particular disability or condition, but at least being open about needing certain support. If that's the case, that's not always the case. But you know, for that, that is something that often happens. That's not so much a consideration when it comes to kind of sexuality. But um equally actually, the, it, it can be important in terms of kind of um knowing if you're somewhere that is going to be supportive of people with different sexualities, different identities, you know, they're going to be, be properly inclusive in that way. And actually sometimes the kind of cultural impacts of that.

And you know, just what Jess was previously saying about the sort of effort and stress that can come from sort of masking and hiding who you are or not sharing who you are It's just important in terms of having that sort of inclusive culture. And that is an example of what you might call the soft adjustment in terms of disparity. But actually, really, you know, that kind of inclusion side of things applies equally to sexuality or, or many other characteristics as as well. So I think that there's that kind of consideration in terms of for disability, you know, adjustments that you might need generally in terms of, you know, hidden differences, you know, it's, it's about uh do you feel comfortable to do so in this environment? I think kind of, you say the kind of personal side of things, actually, you know, the, the, although we think about adjustments, maybe as part of a kind of workplace thing, I guess, equally the kind of idea about, you know, am I happy to kind of be sort of open about this side of my life, you know, in any sort of sort of non-workplace setting, how people are going to sort of take that whether they are going to be sort of supportive and provide that support is something that still plays into consideration, although in maybe in a slightly different way, in a less professional way, but actually the same kind of attitude that, you know, people may, may hold or, or not, or not hold as the case may be, is still going to be really impactful when it comes to hidden differences. And actually I'd say there's quite a bit of overlap there, although obviously, you know, there are also different areas where, they might sort of impact in different ways. But yeah, I think I would say that there are similarities, there are differences as well with the between disability and LGBT in in that way. But then also, as I say, in terms of kind of generally wanting to feel included, there are quite a few overlaps there as well.

Iveliz: Yeah, thank you for sharing. You know, Erin, do you want to chime in here as well? You know, what do those considerations look like for you and, and just feel free to chime in and let us know if, if these are similar for you or if you have different considerations?

Erin: I think that in my personal life, it's interesting. I find in my professional life, more people are understanding of anxiety and panic, probably because I'm at Reed Smith, than in my personal life. So I'm really, I, I make it sort of a mission of mine in my personal life to, you know, tell the story of mental health challenges to people who don't understand what that means in particular anxiety, depression, and how chemicals come into play that, you know, you hear people say sometimes like, you know, well, why can't somebody just not be depressed and why can't they just calm down when they're upset? And in, in, you know, there are brain chemicals at play there that make that impossible. And when you are in the throes of anxiety or depression or panic attack, it is next to impossible to try to come out of that with, you know, if, if it's, if it's a chemical condition, it's next to impossible to just come out of that, like, naturally or, or holistically.

So I'm always talking about that more so in my personal life. Professionally, I think one thing that is difficult and, and I haven't had to do this thankfully, but I think people have thought about this more in the past few years is, you know, is this organization right for me? And if you feel like you're having to use a ton of energy hiding who you are, like Jess said, you know, that takes a lot of energy and, and if, if you feel like you're using a ton of energy hiding a major component of who you are in consideration of joining an organization or within the organization that you're in It may be time to have a tough conversation with yourself. You know, is this where I belong? Because for me and this is just for me, but the values of, of where I work have to align with my values or I can't be there.

And like I said, I'm fortunate that I haven't had to, you know, address that decision at Reed Smith. But I think there are probably a lot of people out there who do have to think about that. And I know it's not easy sometimes just to tell yourself you may want to make a change. But, you know, if you're using that energy, day in and day out hiding something about yourself, that is a huge part of who you are, then you may want to think about possibly joining a different organization or, you know, perhaps not, you know, deciding not to interview with, with an organization whose values don't align with yours.

Jess: I was just gonna say, I agree with everything that has been said. But the one point that I would probably add and is, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, probably slightly more relevant to the LGBTQ community is, is safety and particularly outside the workplace. Because in the particular climate that we're in right now, different people have a lot of opinions about what queer people should be able to do and, and wear and just their very existence. So even if it might not seem like a, even if it might seem like a remote issue in a particular situation and even if you've been out for a long time in a, a lot of different areas of your life, there's still that element that needs to be considered. I know there's some places where I've gone where I don't feel safe being out And I'm not and I make a conscious choice for that. And it's unfortunate, but that's just where we are still sometimes. And I think alongside that it's important to remember sometimes the privileges that we might have based on where you live in terms of what level of safety you have and what that means in terms of whether you disclose and how and where.

Jonathan: Yeah, I think that's a really important point and it goes to the goes to the fact that, you know, people aren't going to be comfortable disclosing everywhere. And actually, in order to, you know, you can create that environment, we've spoken about how important it is for people to be open and, you know, helpful when people can be themselves. But that does require conscious effort, you know, where in the part of a community or a workplace to be able to build that. You can't just expect people to do it themselves. And I, that's why I was really impressed with, you know, the work that Reed Smith's done in this area because when I, you know, came for interviews, met the firm before joining, it was very obvious that there was that culture in place, but it's not, you know, it's not the fact that everywhere in the world is going to be the same.

Iveliz: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And, and, you know, Jess I, I share, you know, those concerns about safety. You know, it's, it's a privilege one to go on vacation. But one of the things that, you know, my partner and I have to consider where some of my other friends may not, is, is this a safe place to travel? You know, and, and, and I don't think that unless people have to think about that, they really understand the weight that that has because you have to consider, you know, your, your life. Right. Um, there are people out there who firmly believe that your existence is a threat. And so I hear you and I think that's really important consideration to keep in mind is that sometimes it, it's a matter of safety. It's not a matter of, you know, am I comfortable with myself? Right? It's a matter of, is the world going to respect me? Is, am I going to be held Is my life going to be in jeopardy or my identity going to be in jeopardy because other people are going to have a hard time swallowing who I am. I want to shift gears a little bit because I wanna be mindful of our time. But I also want to talk about this idea of invisible diversity, right? Those things that you can't see like disabilities, particularly those that aren't visible or like LGBTQ status. And I want to get a sense from you folks. Do you think that people whether in the workplace or in society give enough consideration to invisible diversity?

Jonathan: I think that there's growing awareness and that, you know, things are kind of moving in the right direction on this. I think it can be sort of tempting when it comes to diversity, for people to focus on the things that you can see just because it's easier for a lot of people um to kind of identify difference in the way that is, you know, visually obvious. And of course, it's not necessarily the case that all members of the LGBTQ+ community will be having an invisible difference or indeed disability, there may be visible forms of that as well. But I do think that it requires a bit more of a conscious effort to really, you know, think about the differences people can't see and also to actually consider them as part of as part of the question about diversity. Because I think sometimes people can sometimes, you know, assume things like mental health, for example, which Erin has spoken about and yourself, sometimes people can see that Oh, that's an issue. But they won't necessarily connect the dots and see it's a diversity issue. You know, they might see it as a health issue, for example. Well, actually it very much factors into diversity and identities, people's identities, you know, that are multifaceted and make up these individuals and people will have multiple identities, including those non-visible ones.

And I think sometimes that can get lost a bit in some of the kind of work just generally spoken about about how we treat diversity. And it's really important to recognize that intersectional lens, you know, and one that very much includes those non-visible differences because when it comes to things like sexuality can have an enormous impact on somebody's life and, and, and you know, as you've said, how safe you feel in particular environments, for example, your choice of partner as well. And you know, it really impact on the, on the personal life to professional life and it can also with disability, it can be very important in terms of, you know, are you working in the best way? You know, are you getting the right support? And are you being able to kind of, you know, give your best to, to the firm and, and how support can be given to do that? So it's actually a really important conversation to have, but it really does require people to, you know, really recognize the importance of visible differences. And I, I'm seeing, I'm seeing progress on that and certainly I say Reed Smith has always been very good on that and um it's why I always felt comfortable being open from the very beginning with them. But in general, yeah, I definitely think there's always more to do on diversity isn't there. So, you know, there's um there's always more to be done. 

Iveliz: And you know, and I love that you mentioned that people confuse this and say, is this a health issue? I think one of the things that someone that I greatly respect once pointed out to me that inclusion and belonging are health issues, right? This is a health issue because the impact of not feeling like you belong, the impact of facing exclusion in the workplace or in society have a tremendous impact on people's mental health, on their abilities. Right. Uh, so, and I, I love that you pointed that out and I, and I want, I just want to highlight, I don't think those are mutually exclusive. Right? I think they're, they're issues that exist because exclusion and the lack of belonging have such a tremendous impact on people on not only their mental but their physical health as well. And so I really appreciate you pointing that out, Jess, Erin, do either of you want to chime in here?

Jess: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think my short answer to that question would be probably that no, I don't think people give enough consideration to it, but I do agree with Jonathan that it is getting better. And I think part of that is about representation and people who do feel comfortable disclosing their disability or their status in the LGBTQ community being open about it because it's hard to acknowledge things I think sometimes that you can't see or that you don't know about. So there's like an assumption that this person looks a certain way they must be the same or they must uh have a particular characteristic, but you can't tell most things about a person by looking at them. So being open about your experiences and your identity gives that opportunity for people to think about it more because it's bringing it into the kind of visible spectrum I guess by being open and talking about it and that I think will help this kind of issue moving forward.

Iveliz: You know, appreciate that. I, you know, I think one of the things that I want to end with is, is allyship and I think there's a balance here. I think that when we are trying to be allies in the workplace, if we're not culturally competent about the, the lived experiences of the people that we work with, it can very easily switch into, we're prying into people's personal lives, you know, and, and I, I use the word cultural competency, but I, I prefer the word cultural humility, right? Because I think competency, it really denotes an expertise and we're never going to be experts in somebody else's lived experience, you know, humility I feel like is more like a lifelong journey and, and we are being humble and, and, and understanding that, you know, it's a lifelong journey and there are things we're going to learn and things we're going to unlearn. And so I guess I want to get a sense from you what does allyship look like? Right? How can, how can we prevent, you know, and obviously, I've been in the workplace, I've had people ask me inappropriate questions about who I am, my identity, what makes me me? And so what is the balancing act? You know, what are some things that are not allyship and what are some things that are? 

Erin: For me allyship is educating and being open, talking about my experiences but also knowing my experiences when I hear certain language about mental health being used very loosely I in the most delicate way possible try to, I don't try, I do intervene and remind the person who's using the language that that's somebody that could be somebody's real experience, for example, Iveliz, I'm sure throughout your lifetime you have heard people very casually say, oh oh my gosh, I feel like I have PTSD and they're, and they really, they don't and they're just expressing that something is, is causing them some stress. And that's where, that's an example of where I would say, well, please, you know, keep in mind there are people who really do truly suffer from PTSD and it is a life altering ongoing challenge. So just things like that and, and not in a combative or assertive way, but just kind of letting people know, hey, by the way, there are people that really do suffer from that. So don't you, you know, maybe think about the, the casualness with which you are using that term. So that's, that's for me, you know how I really from a mental health angle try to continually be an ally. And you know, and in terms of other diversity, allyship for me is just constantly learning. I just keep trying to learn about other people's experiences and what those you know, challenges they may face and the things that they encounter and, and to be mindful of that. And you know, whenever I can, if, if I see something's wrong, I try to act and step in and, and redirect. So that's to me allyship. Something from a mental health perspective that is not allyship that is, is troubling for me is that when somebody discloses a mental health challenge, um unless they take an additional step to disclose their treatment options or you know how they're being treated, I take exception when people ask me, like, are you on medication? What meds are you on? Do you need this? Do you need that? Like if I offer it, that's one thing. But if I don't offer it, I would prefer not to be asked. So that's just raising something, you know, for those who are listening, that can be a little off-putting.

Iveliz: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and it's what, what I think is important to highlight is sometimes these questions aren't asked out of malice, right? They're asked out of a lack of competency. And so, you know, the advice that we're giving really isn't a judgment as opposed to it's advising people, right? That there are ways that, that there are things that you may need to know and there are things that are inappropriate and that you don't need to know. And that's one of those things. Um I know that we're closing in on time, but I want to give both Jess and Jonathan an opportunity to talk about what allyship looks like.

Jess: Yeah. And, and just to build off of what, what you just said about what information is appropriate or not appropriate for someone to know I think a good rule of thumb is, would I be asking this question if this person didn't have this disability or wasn't in the LGBT community? And if you wouldn't, then maybe it's not an appropriate question to ask. But then just turning to allyship. I think what Erin said, such a big part of it is, is learning and always being open to, to listening and stuff. And I think the other part of it is being really in, in it with the people who are in that community as much as you can be as an ally when things are are difficult. So not, not being a fair-weather ally, so to speak, so being there. So I think Pride is a good example. A lot of people celebrate Pride Month but then that's, that's it. It's just a month in the year. But for people in the LGBTQ community, that's all year round. So if you want to celebrate pride, then what else can you be doing throughout the year to support the community? Because it's around year long and there are challenges that people face year-round as well.

Iveliz: Yeah. Good point, Jess. Um, Jonathan?

Jonathan: Yeah, absolutely. I think in part, one part of allyship absolutely is being sort of mindful of how you approach people the way that they should be treated. And I think the, the points about kind of, you know, having sort of the comments made or questions asked that might not be quite appropriate, is a, is a really important one. When it comes to things, particularly in the area of disability, I think quite often, you know, certainly in a lot of the awareness raising in the UK about this, there has been an awareness that maybe people sometimes don't raise things because they are worried about offending. And you know, part of that is actually saying, well, you, you can ask, but equally, you need to do it in a respectful way. And I think very much asking people, you know, for guidance on that and saying what, what just as a ground rule, you know, what are you comfortable for me doing actually is quite a good way of being an ally. And then, but also making sure that once people tell you what they're about to talk about or what you can do to support them that you listen to them because the ally is very much about not centering the ally, but centering the community that they're being an ally for and how they can work to, you know, listen to and support that community. And so you know, whether that is in terms of comments made or whether that is in terms of actually sort of what they can get out to do to support, you know, whether it's sort of, you know, being involved in events, not just in one month but throughout the year or anything else. I very much take allyship you know, where I try to be a good ally for other communities. For example, I really, you know, try to sort of listen to them and then try to be led by that as opposed to saying, here's what I want to do to be an ally. You know, that's not what allyship should be about. It should be about listening to that community and, and supporting them in that way, just as you would hope that other allies of your community would do the same to you.

Iveliz: Absolutely. And I, I love that you pointed out that, you know, not all LGBT people or not all people with disabilities are the same, you know, we're not a monolith. And so it's important that when we're talking about allyship, that we check in with individuals. And I think that that is a very beautiful, way to end this. And so thank you all. I really appreciate you joining us and talking about such an important topic. I'm sure that our listeners have enjoyed listening to your lived experiences, your stories and your advice just as much as I have. So, thank you all and have a great day to the rest of our listeners.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean, and reedsmith.com.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice, and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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