Navigating identity: Muslim attorneys share their journeys

In this episode of Inclusivity Included, host Bareeq Barqawi speaks with Foley Hoag partner Arsalan Suleman and Reed Smith’s Rizzy Qureshi and Wardah Bari about their experiences as Muslim attorneys. This conversation explores the unique journeys, challenges, and triumphs of Muslim professionals in the legal field. Our panelists share personal stories about navigating identity in the workplace, addressing misconceptions about Islam, and fostering a culture of inclusion. Whether you're a legal professional or an ally, this episode offers valuable insights on how we can all contribute to a more equitable and supportive environment.

Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, Inclusivity Included. 

Bareeq: Hello and welcome to this special episode of Inclusivity Included, Reed Smith's DEI podcast. I'm your host, Barik Barkawi, and today we're excited to feature an incredible panel brought to you by the Muslim Inclusion Committee, one of our business inclusion groups here at Reed Smith. This episode highlights the experiences, challenges, and successes of Muslims in the legal profession. Joining us today are three distinguished guests, Arsalan Suleman, a partner at Foley Hoag, an international litigation and arbitration practice, and a former senior diplomat and policymaker at the U.S. Department of State. Rizzy Qureshi, a partner at Reed Smith in Global Regulatory Enforcement and a member of our Executive Committee. Wardah Bari, an Associate Attorney in Global Commercial Disputes at Reed Smith. Hi, everybody. Thank you for joining today.

Arsalan: Thanks for having us.

Bareeq: All right, so let's dive right in. To start, I'd love to hear a little bit about each of your journeys to becoming lawyers. What inspired you to pursue a career in the legal field? I will start with you, Arsalan.

Arsalan: Great, thank you. Yeah, I guess for me, I sort of started thinking about going into a legal path seriously all the way back in high school when I started getting into high school policy debate. I sort of had the expected path of a South Asian son of two doctors. And so growing up, I assumed that I was going to be a doctor. But when I got kind of pretty far into heavily into policy debate in high school, I kind of realized that I was more interested in issues related to law and policy, especially foreign policy. And so the legal sort of option became much more serious for me around that time. And so going into college, I kind of had that as sort of a big general motivation and kind of experiences in college kind of reinforced that. So yeah, that was kind of my sort of tilt towards the law.

Bareeq: Love that. So you've got to find your calling pretty early in life. That's fantastic. What about you, Rizzy?

Rizzy: You know, my upbringing is not very different than Arsalan's or Wardah’s. I'm actually growing up in a Pakistani household. I'm a failure because I didn't go to medical school. But, you know, for me growing up, my dad was a veterinarian. His dream was to attend medical school. So I was very much pushed towards medicine and sciences. But unfortunately, that didn't jive with my skill set and my passion. And it became evident pretty early on when, as a young person, as a child of first-generation Americans who needed me to just be involved in things that ordinary 12-year-olds wouldn't need to be involved in, which is participate in the closing of our very first home and sort of reading documents and providing analysis, which I had no business doing. But it just is the way I grew up in advocating in my community in North Philadelphia, as well as in my Muslim community. And, you know, it became evident early on that advocacy was where I was best positioned with my skill set. And then ultimately, you know, dropping AP Bio is probably a pretty monumental moment of my life because my dad needed to have a sit down with everybody at the whole school district. But fast forward 40 plus years, my parents are very proud of me. And I've succeeded in an area where I think I can provide the most value to my community, which I think is critical to me as a person and how my parents ultimately raised me. I love that.

Bareeq: I love that you highlighted advocacy. I found that doing these episodes, a lot of immigrant households or first-generation families, advocacy seems to be a really big theme in growing up in American society and kind of advocating for your family and extended community. So that's fantastic. Wardah, what about you?

Wardah: Yeah, I think very similar family upbringing. I also come from a Pakistani Muslim family, first generation, and we grew up in a really small town. It was a very small, white, homogenous town. We were the only Muslim kids in our school. And so watching my parents navigate as immigrants living in a new society. Trying to integrate, trying to learn how to navigate these systems, it wasn't always easy. But I think a really big moment for me was after 9-11, which I think, Like a lot of Muslims can relate to this. There was a lot of Islamophobia in my town that everyone in my family faced since we were, you know, the only Muslim kids. People would say things about me, my family. They would come up to us at the grocery store and like harass my mom. Teachers would say really Islamophobic things. And so, you know, as a student, as a, you know, like a young student, that really makes an impression on you and my classmates. So watching my family go through these things, I would always try to speak up about these injustices. But my parents as immigrants were very much like, you know, we put our heads down. We just work hard. You know, we don't make commotion. We're just second class citizens. We need to try to fit in. But over time, watching my family go through all of this and as well as other communities, you know, immigrant communities, religious groups, minorities face different injustices that made me really want to go to law school because, well, one, we have enough doctors. And although that was also a big pressure for me too. But I thought that having a law degree would really help me not only understand the law and legal processes, you know, which were not really designed for people like us, but it also helps equips you with the tools to navigate these systems and really understand how our society works and advocate for people that always can't advocate for themselves.

Bareeq: You know, you bring up a really great point, which is when you mentioned 9-11 and how pivotal that was to your entry into the legal profession. And I find that with majority Muslims, I too am Muslim, and there's life before 9-11 and there's life after 9-11 when it comes to living in America. So at least for us in terms of what we've experienced and the heightened Islamophobia, I would love to hear about what other pivotal moments or were there any other pivotal moments in your careers that shaped the path that you're on today? And actually, I'll send it over to you, Rizzy.

Rizzy: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, for me, I kind of look at it two ways. You're absolutely right. 9-11 was a monumental moment, and it impacted everybody, in particular, the Muslim American community. So that stands out in my mind. But, you know, breaking into big law as a first year associate in Manhattan and just being different and and being in the “minority,” not only with how I identify, but also how I may behave or the things I'm doing during Ramadan, for example. You know, always not always, but was oftentimes a natural tension with what I quote was supposed to be. doing at the law firm that evening. So I actually look back a lot to those early days in my career where frankly, and I'm being completely honest, where I think I compromised what I knew in my core to be my priorities for the benefit of doing what I thought was necessary to succeed in the law firm environment. And that was 18, 20 years ago when I started practicing law. And I'm happy to report that so much has changed and I've been re-invited to and returned to my core, but those are some pivotal moments because I think back sometimes at that time of my career, I have some regret that I wasn't more, I'll call it outwardly Muslim and outwardly different so that my presence could be, I mean, I'm not an inspiring person, but an inspiration or something for people from my community, but I learned from it. And I learned for why sometimes survival requires one to at least not. Human nature requires you to behave sometimes in ways that maybe you don't think you're going to behave. And I'm not suggesting that, you know, if my mom listens to this podcast, she will, mom, I wasn't eating pork all the time or, you know, doing crazy things. But I think from her perspective, by the way, but I think it really does put into focus how much, how far we've come as a legal industry, as a community, as a country. But, you know, current events would tell you that, are we going a step backward? And, you know, that remains to be seen, but that's what gives me both concern and also reinforces me the importance of being out there, being present in leadership in this global law firm to ensure people know that I'm here and I am different and that I'm here to support them.

Bareeq: You know, I will beg to differ on one thing, Rizzy, which is that you're not an inspiration because I don't think that's true. You know, I think you talk about compromise and sacrifice, you know, 18 years ago and when you were starting your career and things. But now, for example, like you being a member of the executive committee as a Muslim, I think paves the path for other Muslims to say like, hey, that could be me one day. And I do think representation matters in that regard. So I do find that, you know, I know you're trying to like be humble about it, but I do believe that that's going to be, you know, a huge factor in younger Muslim attorneys thinking that they can one day achieve something like that. So I do think that's really inspiring. Arsalan, what about you? What pivotal moments in your career have shaped the path you're on?

Arsalan: Yeah, I just want to agree with you, Bareeq. I find Rizzy’s service both in government and now his work in the private sector to be inspiring, and I'm sure it is inspiring for a lot of younger lawyers, Muslim or not. I mean, for me, I think a couple of pivotal moments. So yeah, I mean, I was in, I was a college junior when 9-11 happened. So I think that definitely changed the landscape domestically, internationally for Americans in general, but especially I think Muslim Americans. So that definitely sharpened my interest in pursuing a legal career. Both in terms of working on issues related to civil rights and human rights, but also on government policy issues. The other pivotal moments, I think, are actually sort of political moments, elections that kind of shaped the stages of sort of my career path. So the first was President Obama's election in 2008, because a couple years after, well, in 2010, I joined the State Department. And that wouldn't have happened absent him being elected, probably. And that sort of started a phase of my career where I was working in government in the State Department, working on issues of foreign policy and human rights, not directly kind of practicing law, but using some of my legal background and skills to advance foreign policy priorities related to deepening and expanding U.S. Relations with Muslim-majority countries and communities, and also working on issues related to human rights in the UN system. And then the next sort of pivotal moment, I think, was the first Trump election, the 2016 presidential election. Because when I was in the Obama administration, I was a political appointee. And when administrations transition, of course, political appointees usually leave. And so, That's when I left the State Department and had to figure out what I was going to do with my life, whether I was going to go back to being a lawyer, which was what I was doing before the State Department, or if I was going to end up doing something else. And very happily, I ended up finding a home at Foley Hoag and have integrated into our international litigation and arbitration practice and have gotten the opportunity to represent foreign states in a number of really interesting international disputes. So I'm very pleased at the way that that transition ended up because there were a lot of moments when I wasn't sure what was going to happen and, you know, what I was going to end up doing. But thankfully, I think it worked out in a really good way overall.

Bareeq: Yeah. And sounds like you were able to kind of melt the two worlds together, which sounds really great. So actually, we're going to transition to some challenges and how to navigate them as Muslims in the legal profession. What challenges have you faced and how have you navigated through them? Maybe like a specific story or example that comes to mind in your day-to-day practice that you'd want to share. And actually, I'm going to go to Rizzy.

Rizzy: Wow, that's a tough one because there's so many. You know, I think for me, the biggest challenge always has been, you know, I'm not a Harvard graduate. I went to Howard and I have a real chip on my shoulder about that. I'm very proud of it. But as Wardah and Arsalan will appreciate, when my immigrant uncles would misunderstand me and think I went to Harvard and not Howard, there was a time in my life where I wouldn't correct them. But now I very much actively correct them. And, you know, sort of being someone who's not supposed to be in the room is something that initially I feared. But now I frankly thrive on. And it's, I think, paid dividends in my career and how I represent my clients. Because even to this day, as somebody who spent as much time as I did at the Department of Justice, when I'm on the other side of the table with DOJ and SEC lawyers, I still look a lot different than a lot of them do and have a very different life experience. But I think in terms of just a specific example is when serving as a prosecutor, there were instances where I came across investigations or matters on my desk that, frankly did not jive with my. Morals, my ethics, or were not the type of dispositions that I believe were going to attain the justice that we needed on behalf of the victim in that situation or the community, and also to hold the individual accountable. It took some time to work through that and get the courage to express a position that was in the minority on, hey, maybe this person doesn't need to be indicted in the manner that we are proposing supervisor which will result in more harm than good and this is a young person who has potential and we can think of a more. Creative disposition where we hold them accountable for their bad conduct but at the same time put them on a track where they have the potential of doing something good with their life and And as for those of us, and I think all of us who have experience here in the D.C. Metro area, that's a tough balance. And it's often a tough balance to articulate to U.S. Attorneys who are political appointees whose obligation is to keep the streets safe. So I interestingly very early on in my career found myself in the U.S. Attorney's office more often than not and you know it's no different than being in the principal's office but I'm so thankful that I took that approach because as a result of me doing that on a couple cases which at the time were insignificant cases and I'm using air quotes and you can't see me because they might have been gun possession cases and not thank God a shooting where somebody was seriously injured or hurt. But it put into focus and it put into practice, at least in my team at the U.S. Attorney's Office, where people felt more comfortable to look at cases and look at facts and look at criminal dispositions with a different lens. And I'm happy to report, you know, I came in under President Obama and Eric Holder, and I left under the first Trump administration. So things had changed. But the first Trump U.S. attorney in D.C. was great. Her name is Jessie Liu, the first Asian American U.S. attorney in D.C. I'm not sure what's going to happen now with where we are today and what's going on with the leadership in an office. But I think that was one of the most difficult things I've dealt with because I had to, similarly in my prior conversation. Had to battle my own survival and promotion within an office and a department that I cared about while at the same time staying true to what I felt was the right thing to do.

Bareeq: That's a great story. And I can see where, you know, there would be challenges along the path to, like, upward career progression, but also staying true to your beliefs. Wardah, I'm going to pose a similar question to you. Have you ever felt like your values or beliefs were in tension within the workplace environment? And if so, how did you navigate those situations?

Wardah: Yeah, so I think there, so I'm, I'm a very, uh, a junior lawyer. I, I, I'm like a third year now. And so I'm still kind of figuring out how my values and my beliefs play into my profession and how it's shaping my career. So, you know, it's very heartening to hear about Rizzi and Arsalan’s experiences. And, you know, I can resonate with a lot of, especially the challenges they face early on in their careers. For me, I'm still trying to figure out how to have these conversations with my colleagues, with my partners, seniors that I work with. And representation is a really big challenge. Being in a courtroom in a meeting or in an office and looking around and realizing I'm the only Muslim or only Pakistani and sometimes even the only woman, it's sometimes difficult for me to speak up and represent. You know, see that there's not representation and then try to advocate for myself and for people with different experiences and backgrounds. But for me, these challenges come across in like small ways as well, like figuring out when to take time off or figuring out how to navigate, you know, fasting during Ramadan or celebrating Eid and things like that. So like this past year, I was visiting my family during Thanksgiving. And when we're all together, we usually go to the mosque for Friday prayers, which is like an hour on Friday afternoons. And I got an email from a partner I work with, and he was asking if I could help with something that was kind of urgent. And so I started panicking and was like, oh, no, I have to tell my parents I can't go. I'm going to have to stay back home. And then I just like got to thinking about it. And I was like, I only see my parents a couple of times a year. And, you know, it's really special for them and important for them that we do this together and attend Friday prayers. And so I emailed my partner and was like, hey, I'm so sorry. I'm going to step out for like an hour or so. But as soon as I come back, I can help with this assignment. And to my surprise, he responded saying Jum'a Mubarak, which is, you know, like the greeting you give on Fridays. And he wrote it in Arabic. and I thought it was so sweet I kind of started tearing up when I saw that and it was kind of the first time where I was like no there is a place for me here there's a place for me at this firm there's a place for me in this profession and there are ways to you know keep up with our religious traditions and values and still you know succeed at our work and and there's a way to figure it all out and you just kind of have to speak up and ask for ask for and like advocate for yourself sometimes.

Bareeq: I love that story. And that's so heartwarming to hear, especially when you find, you know, inclusive leaders like that in this environment, too. And piggybacking off of that, Arsalan, so my next question is, what are some common misconceptions that we found, that you found about Islam that you've encountered in the workplace or even among clients? And how do you approach dispelling them while also maintaining professionalism?

Arsalan: Yeah, that's a good question, Bareeq. I mean, what's interesting is that, you know, in my practice now at Foley, a number of my clients are actually Muslim majority states. So I represent Qatar in various matters, the Gambia in various matters. These are countries that are Muslim-majority states, and so my identity as a Muslim and my understanding of Islam is actually sort of a positive in being able to relate to maybe issues that our client is facing or that the officials that I'm engaging with are sort of thinking about, right, like whether it's a Friday or whether there's Ramadan coming up or other holidays. But in terms of misconceptions, I think that question generally kind of brings me back to that time in the State Department when, you know, especially kind of in that post 9-11, post Iraq war time in the Obama administration, there was a big effort to get the U.S. Out of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And as part of that effort, in particular in Iraq, there was sort of the rise of ISIS. And I think around that time, and kind of consistently going back before then and afterwards, there are these just common tropes about Islam and Muslims in terms of Islam and violence or Islam and terrorism or Islam and the treatment of women or Islam and human rights. And so those would constantly come up in terms of how to, you know, properly understand a situation or how to properly, you know, understand the motivation of certain groups that claim to be invoking Islam as some sort of justification for their actions, but in reality, you know, have nothing to do with the actual teachings of Islam when you get down to it. And so I found that to be a big challenge because there were, especially with the rise of ISIS, there was kind of this understanding or this sort of idea out there that, you know, ISIS is like really, you know, leaning into certain interpretations of Islam. And it just created a lot of, I think, really problematic assumptions and understandings amongst policymakers and other folks that, again, just kind of leaned into these really, you know, problematic tropes about Islam and Muslims. And so, I mean, when you serve in government, there's often sort of an, especially in the sort of diplomatic space, there's often sort of an internal and an external kind of dynamic. Like internally, you're working on how you can influence policy, how you can best inform the policymakers and, you know, ensure that where we end up on policy is kind of in the best place or where it should be or as well informed as it can be. And then once the policy is kind of set or made, then you have the external side where you're sort of interacting with interlocutors and trying to explain or present you as policy. And. In terms of the internal side of that dynamic, you know, me and other colleagues who are sort of working together in our offices or in this space would often try to, you know, bring to the table our expertise and our backgrounds to help, you know, better inform these conversations and help better sort of present sort of the situation as it is. And as it's being perceived by, you know, various kind of partners in the regions that are being affected. And so that was sort of one way of trying to approach those misconceptions is just trying to bring more evidence and sort of nuanced understanding to the table and sort of ensure that other considerations are being made and that people aren't sort of just running off with the latest interpretation that they read in an op-ed in some magazine and sort of ignoring sort of, you know, a longer history of research and understanding and inputs that should go into the process. Yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of one example that I would think of when in terms of that question.

Bareeq: Yeah, that's a great example. And I love that in your experience, it's almost like your background as a Muslim became kind of like a superpower, like you were the resident expert. And because, you know, your business, like revolved around that, you were able to provide almost like a business case for, you know, being diverse in this profession and how you had that expertise to share. So I think that's fantastic. Wardah, you talked a little bit about being the only, right? The only Muslim in the room, the only Pakistani in the room, or the only woman in the room. And I wanted to just ask, do you think that awareness of Muslim culture and traditions, like we mentioned Ramadan, Eid, has improved in the legal profession? And how do you think law firms can create more inclusive environments for Muslim attorneys and staff?

Wardah: Yeah, I mean, for as long as I've been working here, I do think it is getting better. And I do see a lot of diversity. I see a lot of people from different backgrounds who, you know, I don't have to explain it to every single person that I meet, but there are still a lot of questions and people that don't know, especially, you know, like there are a lot of partners I work with that they don't, they haven't really had to experience somebody who's fasted before or had to take off time during Eid or, you know, just had a Muslim on their team before. And so they, While I do think things are improving, and I'm sure like Rizzy and Arsalan can say more about how it's changed over their time, I do think it's improved a lot, but I do think there's a lot more work to be done. And I think part of it is, you know, people shouldn't, you know, feed into these stereotypes or make assumptions about people. You know, we are on a spectrum. There's a lot of diversity within Islam as well. And we, you know, practice. We have a lot of similarities. We have a lot of differences. And I think it's good to do research. I think it's good to ask questions. I think it's good to have these conversations so that we can help accommodate and we can help, you know, take care of each other and see how we can help and how we can increase the representation moving forward as well.

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you. Rizzy, I'm going to pose the next question to you as we get close to wrapping up. What role do you find affinity groups and DEI initiatives like the Muslim Inclusion Committee, what role do you think they play in fostering that inclusion and support for Muslim professionals?

Rizzy: I think they play a critical role. And, you know, as having the privilege of serving as the sort of founding partner co-chair at Reed Smith of our Muslim Inclusion Committee, we didn't know when we started the Muslim Inclusion Committee, you know, a year and a half ago, or whatever it was, Bareeq, you would know the exact date, but that the conflict in Gaza was going to, you know, go in the direction that it did, and that the human impact of it would be so direct to many of us. Our colleagues and having a safe space to discuss how do I both support my community and those impacted, but also remain appropriately Empathetic and sympathetic to the plight of our Jewish brothers and sisters who had been impacted by it as well. You know, in a work environment, there are so many things at play, because let me step back for a moment. I mean, Muslim Inclusion Committee or not, whatever the business inclusion group is, whatever affinity group, we as a law firm, and most law firms across the planet, their number one obligation is to their clients. That's what our ethical duty is. And to the partnership, the obligation is to ensure that we remain profitable so our people can stay employed, right? And when you sort of put that aside and that priority aside is like, what kind of culture and environment you want to bring and do you want to have at your firm? And I can tell you, I'm really proud of being at this firm because I grew up at this firm and now being in leadership and on the executive committee, I can see from top to bottom, there is a real commitment. To having an inclusive environment. But sometimes that's hard to do. You can have all the commitments you want and you can have all the good intentions you want. But if our black colleagues are not feeling safe following George Floyd, which was an issue across the globe, across corporate America, if our Muslim colleagues are not feeling safe because of the anti-Muslim backlash that has occurred post 9-11 or has occurred post the events in Gaza, or our Jewish colleagues don't feel safe because of the increased anti-Semitism, those safe spaces to express how you're feeling and how to navigate that both outside and in the workplace are so critical. And it sounds kind of. Really minor, but I think safe spaces are key. And, you know, it also provides you an opportunity to find a connection to your colleague outside of the day-to-day substantive grind of practicing law, which I think is important. And the final point that I'll make is, like most groups, Muslims are not monoliths. There are all kinds of Muslims who have all kinds of belief systems, who have very different approaches to their faith. But what I love about the Muslim inclusion committees, and I would say something very controversial, which I'm not afraid to say. Sometimes I find inclusion committees, particularly Muslim inclusion committees, to be more inclusive than we even see in our own communities at mosques and other places, because there's a recognition that we need to be open and inclusive and foster an environment that all can thrive in. So I think it's great, and I think it's a great opportunity, finally, to educate our colleagues. It's very normal for everybody around Yom Kippur. Now it's become part of our language. And it wasn't like this 20 years ago, where we talk to our colleagues and we tell them, have a good fast and have a good Sabbath. I want that to be part of the dialogue and language of all of our colleagues across the legal profession when Ramadan approaches, that there's an acknowledgement and knowledge amongst those who are Muslim and non-Muslim that here's what the Muslims who are practicing are about to get to do. And let me wish, you know, Arsalan or Wardah a good fast or a blessed Ramadan. And if we can get there, if that's language that's normal, just like saying Merry Christmas to somebody, to me, that's success.

Bareeq: I love that. I mean, we have partners saying Jum'a Mubarak, so, you know, we're halfway there. So I'm going to end on one question, and I'm going to, you know, take it around the panel before we end. And I'll start with you, Arsalan. So what advice would you give to Muslim associates or law students that aspire to succeed in this field? And then on the flip side, what advice would you give non-Muslim colleagues and leaders in law firms to be better allies to Muslim co-workers?

Arsalan: I think for the associates or law students, I think that the kind of message is really just that, you know, you have a place in this industry and there is no kind of forced choice between adhering to your ethics and values and religious practice and being a successful lawyer. I think there are, especially at this point now, you know, many, many examples of people who are successful in the field are in leadership positions like Rizzy, are in senior kind of leadership roles in government and private sector. So, you know, role models are there, examples are there. And I think it's really, I think it's a bright future for those who want to enter this space and want to do so while remaining true to their own beliefs and values. I think it's really important for folks, you know, just to think about what kind of environment they're creating and what kind of atmosphere they want. You know, Rizzy was just talking about creating an inclusive atmosphere where people can celebrate each other's holidays and just make people feel welcome and appreciated for who they are and what they believe and not feel like they have to hide that. I mean, I think that's great. I think those kind of environments are environments where people will feel happy, will feel like they are valued and will make them, you know, happier to come into work and to make sure that they're doing their best for their clients, but also for their colleagues. And so that's the advice that I would give. You know, we have a similar approach at Foley Hoag. We have kind of a robust DE&I effort. We have an affinity group for Arab, Muslim and Middle Eastern attorneys or those who have such a background. So we try to similarly ensure that all of our attorneys from various backgrounds have the means to express what they choose to express, but also are able to stay true to their practices, beliefs, and values while being productive members of the firm. So I think those kind of values are values that firms and other sort of companies will be much more successful in kind of cultivating, retaining, and attracting talent than those that have kind of a more. I don't know what the right description would be, but a less inclusive or sort of a more sort of Darwinian approach to advancement and inclusion.

Bareeq: Fantastic. Thank you. Wardah, what about you?

Wardah: Yeah, so I think, I mean, I echo a lot of what Arsalan just said, but I don't think you should be afraid to be who you are. You can be true to your values and your roots. It's been really nice to see new associates come in who are Muslims and, you know, they come to me for advice. And even though I'm still figuring all of this out, too, I want to encourage them to, you know, not be afraid to be Muslim and not be afraid to show that you're Muslim and, you know, speak up for yourself when the time arises and don't be afraid. You know, there will always be resources. And I think to our colleagues, like I said, I think it's important that people don't make assumptions about us. But at the same time, advice for us and like younger Muslim attorneys as well, don't make assumptions about other people as well. Sometimes your greatest allies will be in people that are different from you. Oftentimes there'll be people that are different than you. Sometimes your biggest advocates will be, you know, like people that you never expected. And the only way you can get there is by having these honest, real conversations with them.

Bareeq: I love that. And I echo that. I do find that sometimes, you know, non-Muslim colleagues or someone that's not like you can be your strongest advocate and ally. Rizzy, finally, what about you?

Rizzy: I would just say for Muslim associates and law students, we live in a different world today where you can effectively get, I mean, you can look up Arsalan's incredible journey in his career by Googling him and looking at his LinkedIn profile. And I would encourage people to identify, assuming you want to make connections, identify Muslim colleagues or those who identify as Muslim outwardly or not, whose careers you're interested in, and take the step to make outreach to them. Because all of us, and I would think Arsalan and Wardah would agree, and you as well, Bareeq, as a leader, a Muslim leader in D&I, in big law, to make outreach. And don't wait for your law firm apparatus to appoint a mentor to you. Go out and adopt your own mentors. And that's paid dividends in my career. I've cold-called or cold-emailed people that I had some connection to, whether it's our background or whether it's the law school we went to. And I can give countless examples of why I became a federal law clerk or became an AUSA. And I attribute a lot of that to just making cold calls. And for our non-Muslim colleagues and leaders, I think it's just to not forget that we're here. And not to, you know, just like when I go into one of my really difficult investigation matters or trial matters, I think about my entire team. And I have extroverts on my team and I have introverts on my team. And I think about how the introvert, I'm going to use him or her effectively in this otherwise pretty adversarial encounter with DOJ or with a witness that we need to interview and how am I going to put him or her in the best position to succeed? Because it's easy to just say the extrovert will do what I need him or her to do, and I'll get the job done. But it's thinking like that outside of the box with inclusivity that, you know, it's getting close to Ramadan. We're about to have this big retreat for some reason at the firm. And I'm giving a hypothetical example. Is this the right time to do it? How many of our Muslim colleagues is this going to impact? You know, those are the kinds of things that I want our non-Muslim colleagues to think about, just like we think about when we're approaching other important monumental days for other non-Muslim colleagues, whether it's in the calendar year because it's a holiday or because something else is going on in that community. And, you know, once you don't lose sight of the fact that we're here, and that's incumbent upon us as Muslim Americans to remind folks that we're here, you know, I believe that we're going to be heading in the right direction that I think we already are in many respects.

Bareeq: I love that. And I feel like as we've talked about, being the only person in the room can be an isolating experience, but it can also have power. Being in the room is also powerful because, like Rizzy mentioned, you know, you have to be considered. You have to be acknowledged. And so, you know, I said two sides of the same coin sometimes. So as we wrap up, I want to say thank you so much, Arsalan Rizzy and Wardah, for sharing your stories, insights, and advice. Your contributions have been both inspiring and thought-provoking. And I want to thank our listeners for tuning into this episode of Inclusivity Included. Be sure to join us next time as we continue exploring the many facets of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the legal profession. Thank you.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  

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