At the intersection of DE&I and talent development

Erin Wilkins, Reed Smith’s DE&I talent development analyst, joins our hosts, John Iino and Iveliz Crespo, to discuss the role that bias plays in talent development in the employment environment, including advancement, work assignments, and opportunities. Erin also discusses her role in administering and further developing Reed Smith’s DE&I Leadership Development Program, a groundbreaking program that is centered on the premise that mitigating bias and creating equitable opportunities requires intentionality and commitment.

Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast. Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

John: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. As usual, I'm joined by our co-host Iveliz Crespo. Hey, Iveliz. 

Iveliz: Hi, John, how are you today? 

John: Oh, pretty good. So today, for our audience, we've got a special treat. Actually introducing someone from our internal Reed Smith team. Really privileged to have Erin Wilkins join us on today's podcast. Erin is our DE&I talent development analyst here at Reed Smith. And among other things, amongst the many things that Erin does is to administer our DE&I Leadership development program as we call the LDP along with other members of our DE&I core team. Little bit of background on Erin, before we were so privileged, Erin of you joining us about, you know, 7/8 months ago, Erin was in professional development and training at another MLA 100 firm where she was supporting the professional development programs for attorneys and professional staff. And before that, Erin was in higher education as a professional who advised undergraduate students at the George Washington University School of Business. And she also earned her MA in education and human development. Among the many things that Erin really focuses on are the importance of DE&I and its intersection with talent development. I know we talk almost every day, but it's great to have you uh join Iveliz and me for our podcast and introduce you to our listeners. 

Erin: Thanks for having me, both of you and what a lovely introduction. I'm honored. 

Iveliz: All right. Well, Erin, thanks again for joining us. One of the things that we always discuss during our podcast are our guest powerful personal stories. It's a way for us to highlight exemplary individuals and to add faces to the many DE&I champions that exist. So why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about who you are, what motivates you and also go into a little bit of why you decided to enter the talent development space. 

Erin: Absolutely. Well, John, thank you again for your wonderful introduction for the audience. My name is Erin Wilkins. As John mentioned, I am the DE&I Talent development analyst at Reed Smith and I've been with Reed Smith since August of 2021. So it's been almost seven months now, which is absolutely flown by. When I think about what motivates me and why I chose talent development, I kind of think back to growing up. I come from a family of very hard working, smart, motivated people. And I never had a really great grasp on hard skills or technical skills. You know, my brothers and my dad were very good at science and math and my mom is very analytical and really great with budgets and finances. And people always told me, you know, you're great with people. You're very approachable, people trust you and they open up to you. But in high school, there wasn't really a space for me to really flex that skill or even call it a skill. And I think I didn't see that as valuable until I really entered college and was able to have different jobs and opportunities around campus. And one opportunity that really shaped what I do now is when I worked in the office of admissions, and I worked as a campus visit assistant and I was able to help grow our tour guide program. We had over 100 tour guides and I supported the learning and development of the guides and the training. We did a lot of DEI training and I also just supported them throughout their development as a tour guide. And there was one specific instance where there was a tour guide who was a man and a tour guide who was a woman and the male tour guide always got really great reviews about how funny he was and how families were smiling his whole tour. And this other female tour guide came up to me and said, you know, Erin people don't find me funny. They never write that I'm funny and I want to make people laugh. And I remember having that conversation with her about, well, Why? You know, when people come back from your tours, they talk about how they learned so much rich history about the university and how they got so much information and it was the most memorable college tour they'd ever been on. So I kind of coached her through leaning into that rather than trying to be something that wasn't her strength. And from there, from those conversations with students and colleagues and peers, that's when I realized this is what I wanted to do for my career. And that's what led me on my journey to get my master's in education human development to work with students and ultimately start working in the legal industry in professional development, talent development and the DEI space. 

John: We're, we're so fortunate that you're part of our team here. And I, I agree with your assessment back in high school that you're, you know, great with people. And I think it's just really inspiring for folks out there to know that there's a, there's a role for, you know, whatever talents you have as you said, you know, two different tour guides. But uh you know, a lot of people do have different talents that they bring to their roles. So let's talk a little bit about your role. As you mentioned, you've been here about seven months now. Your role here at Reed Smith is unique in that, you know, you're in talent development, but exclusively focusing on our diverse talent. So share with our audience a little bit about your role here at Reed Smith. 

Erin: Absolutely, John. My role as you know, is ever evolving. As you've mentioned, my primary responsibility is to administer our new DEI leadership development program. So this was actually a newly created role that's firm wide. So that's been great for me because there's been a lot of opportunity to collaborate across departments and work on multiple different projects. So for example, I recently was working with Reed Smith University to develop A DEI training series exclusively for professional staff. So that's something that's brand new. Typically a lot of our programming specially related to DEI is focused more towards our attorneys. So to bring some new content in a series specifically for professional staff has been really unique and a really exciting project to work on. I've also been working with HR to help re evaluate the professional staff evaluation process, just to make the criteria more inclusive and equitable for everyone, especially as our country and the world has kind of been rethinking hybrid work and flexible working, making sure that our policies and what we're actually evaluating people on stays equitable and consistent. And I'm also starting to work with clients on DEI trainings as well. So far, this role has been very dynamic and it's given me a lot of opportunity to collaborate across multiple departments firm wide. 

Iveliz: So Erin, you know, and I echo what John said about being really fortunate to have you with us. I think it was something that we recognize we were missing, Right? That expertise in talent development in our DEI program. And you mentioned that you are working closely on administering a leadership development program. Now, John and I are are very much familiar with the program, but for our listeners who may not have an understanding of what that program is, would you tell us a little bit more about that program and maybe highlight some of the major components? 

Erin: Absolutely, I could talk about the leadership development program all day, but I will keep it brief. This program was created to address bias and this lack of equitable opportunities for our diverse talent to, to gain access to equitable leadership opportunities around the firm. So it's a program that we've made available to all of our US based attorneys and staff. And this program, although came to fruition, I think before I really joined, we recognized that addressing systemic issues such as access to equitable opportunities would require a really intentional program and commitment at all levels of the firm. So our goals for this program are to increase retention among our high achieving diverse talent, including attorneys and staff to increase internal hiring and promotion of the firm's diverse talent. So recognizing that we already have a lot of very qualified and committed people at the firm. And we want to be able to elevate them into director roles, senior leadership roles, partner roles, et cetera when there's an opportunity and also to promote sponsorship opportunities between more junior diverse talent and our senior leadership in hopes that it will promote their visibility throughout the firm. And we went with sponsorship instead of mentorship. Although they're both valuable, sponsorship really takes more of an active role than a mentor does in making sure that they're actively advocating for their protege, introducing them to industry and client contacts and supporting their career development on a very active basis. So there's three major components to this program that includes a piece that I'm largely involved in, which is coordinating group development opportunities. And this year, we have, our first year, we have engaged an external consulting firm to deliver high quality workshops on topics like professional communication and executive presence, business development and other topics that came up during the application process from our participants as topics that they want to learn more about and gain more expertise. We also have other Reed Smith colleagues come in and present workshops to the group. So we also like to use our internal talent as well. A second component of the program is individual executive coaching with our in house executive career coach who also hosts group coaching sessions for participants throughout the year. And those that are chosen to work with her on an individual basis have around nine sessions for the year to discuss career development and other issues that may come up during their work. And then finally, the sponsorship piece that I already mentioned and our team really took a lot of time to make intentional pairings between program participants and senior leaders at the firm. So we really believe that these three major components are gonna help us continue to develop a robust leadership pipeline of diverse lawyers and staff at Reed Smith. 

John: Absolutely, Erin, and what I really appreciate about the, the program is really the, the resources behind it. And as you mentioned, you know, the, the, the staff that we have that the people we're bringing in and, you know, for other organizations out there, it sets an example for, you know, the, the commitment and the emphasis on developing a strong leadership pipeline. We've certainly emphasized, but, you know, it's so important to make sure that you're telling folks and you're signaling that it's very important to invest in our talent. In this case, our, our diverse talent to make sure that we have, you know, the highest quality and diverse talent pipeline for the next generations. 

Iveliz: Yeah. And John, I think one of the things that I like most about the program and Erin highlighted this is that, you know, oftentimes when you hear about talent development in the context of DEI, there's always a conversation about skills gaps. And what is interesting about the leadership development program is that rather than focusing on skills gaps, right? It's a recognition that, you know, our talent doesn't have those skills gap. The issues rather lie right in these institutional barriers, like bias that prevent people from accessing opportunities. And so I really like that the focus of this really does focus on addressing those systemic barriers that we know exist when it comes to talent development, when it comes to business development and all around advancement. 

John: Absolutely. Erin wanted to shift a little bit about just more generally as DNI professionals, I think we all can identify that sometimes our work is very rewarding. Uh we get a lot out of it, but at other times, it's, you know, very challenging as well. So for you, what has been the most rewarding work that you do and what's been the most challenging? 

Erin: That's a great question, John and I think I might start with challenging. So I can end on a positive note with my answer. The most challenging aspect of my work I think is that oftentimes people look at DEI as a value add rather than a function that is necessary for a business. So I think I spend a lot of my time convincing or even sometimes feels like defending why DEI is so important for not only groups that have been historically marginalized, but also that everyone in an organization benefits from having DEI programs and departments and affinity groups and the like. And so the question becomes, you know, how do you convince people that DEI isn't something extra, you know, that it's not the icing on the cake. It is the cake. And I think that it should be woven into the fabric of everything an organization does. So that certainly can make it challenging when it feels like you're constantly having to explain why everything you do is important and why it should be funded and why, why these things matter. In terms of rewarding, I think there are a lot of rewarding aspects of DEI, but I think looking backwards is a way I feel gratitude and I feel the rewards of the work that I do. DEI is kind of a field where you don't always get to see the fruits of your labor and you kind of have to accept that you may never see it. I remember something that was told to me when I first started college. I didn't know what I wanted to do, as I kind of mentioned earlier. And our president gave a speech on our first day and he asked us to raise our hands if we knew what we wanted to do. And, you know, about 10 years ago, I had no idea. And I had my hand down and he said to all of us that that's ok. You know, what you want to do doesn't even exist yet. And it hasn't been thought of yet, but it will when you're ready. And that always stuck with me because, as I mentioned earlier, a year ago, my role didn't exist. It wasn't, at least at Reed Smith, it wasn't something that existed yet. So it's very rewarding to kind of be able to pave the way for what positions like this can look like and how they can make a positive difference. So I find it helpful to look backwards because in the DEI space we've come really, really far and it can be discouraging. But what keeps me motivated is knowing that what you're doing does make a difference to make things better, more equitable and inclusive. Even if I never see it completely come to fruition, it's rewarding to know that it can and that it will because the efforts of those before me have and you know, I get the benefit of reaping what they worked on for me. 

John: 100% And I love the saying you, you said maybe you should trademark this, but it's not just the icing on the cake. It is the cake. And as you think about you know the rewards and looking at the, all the work that you've done, you're not just not focusing on one element of the cake, you're looking at everything and how everything comes together. So it's, that's fantastic. So at the, at the outset, we talked a little bit about the kind of the intersection of DEI and talent development. And so far our listeners can talk about a little bit why that intersection between De nine talent development is so important. 

Erin: Absolutely. And I hope I didn't make you hungry with that last uh answer, John, the intersection of DEI and talent development, you know, I think is so important because of what I mentioned earlier. And what Iveliz highlighted is that there are systemic barriers in our society. And you know, the leadership development program focuses purely on the US at this time, but we have historically excluded groups from advancing and entering leadership positions. So to mitigate that, it’s really important to focus on those groups and to create access to opportunity, whether it's through a program like the leadership development program and others, not because there are skill gaps or knowledge gaps, but’it's simply been barriers to access that were intentionally created. 

Iveliz: So, Erin, I think you touched on this briefly and, and I, I touched on this briefly earlier as you mentioned, but how exactly does bias impact the opportunities of diverse employees in the workforce? 

Erin: Yeah, and I, I think you mentioned this before Ivelizis that we all have bias, you know, unconscious implicit bias and it exists within every corner of our organization that just is how it is. So it does have a huge impact on talent development. And I think that starts from before someone even walks through the door. It's how we advertise jobs. It's who interviews candidates and how performance is managed, you could go on and on. So it impacts development at every level. Affinity bias is one that comes to mind when I think of talent development, it's just one example. But there are many affinity bias, meaning we know that people gravitate towards those that look like them, not only in appearance but who have similar backgrounds and beliefs. And that's what impacts diverse talent a lot is that when there aren't a lot of diverse folks in an organization, they typically don't get that level of support, that level of sponsorship or mentorship because someone in leadership sees them and they remind them of them and they want to take that extra time out of their day, that's not billable and they might have to work longer hours to support that individual. So that's just one example of what we see a lot in talent development. And again, why sponsorship was a piece that was so important to build into the leadership development program. But we could certainly have an entire podcast episode on just this topic. 

John: Absolutely. We all know that we've seen so much interest in terms of the, the bias and whether it's individual bias or just systemic or um institutional bias as well. So for our leaders out there and, and the folks that are in talent development, what are some of the things that we should keep in mind in particular as we, as we talked about bias. And the rest, in terms of, you know, really developing a diverse talent pipeline. 

Erin: I think being intentional is really at the forefront. It's recognizing like we've been saying today, that bias exists and it always will. So making sure you're mitigating it wherever possible. So whether it's creating a diverse hiring panel or working with clients to ensure they're asking for diverse teams and prioritizing diversity or like Reed Smith, creating intentional programs for diverse talent. You know, we have different affinity groups and the leadership development program, also DEI departments are there for a reason. So consulting with those that are leaders in the industry on decision making, you know, those are gonna be your go to people to make sure everyone's considered in big decisions, programs, policies, events, you know, even marketing materials. So using your resources around your organization are certainly important in those efforts. 

Iveliz: You know, I think that's spot on Erin and, you know, I recognize that, you know, we have a lot of organizational leaders that tune in. So I think that's really helpful for them. Another, you know, subset of the people who listen to our podcast tend to be people who are interested in DEI and we recognize that right now it's a very hot job market. We also know as we've talked on this podcast that access to advancement, those quality work assignments and development opportunities are an important consideration when people are selecting a place of employment. So what advice do you have for job seekers, particularly those that may be underrepresented, how they might assess whether companies have equitable practices when it comes to talent development. 

Erin: Yeah, this is such an important question Iveliz, especially because I often hear, you know, when you're looking for a new job, you're interviewing your future employer as much as they're interviewing you. So it's really important for job seekers to do their research, you know, do a quick scan of what you can find on the website on job board reviews. Of course, you have to take everything with a grain of salt and also set up Google alerts or set up news alerts on things that come up on that organization while you're considering them. I think it's also really important to feel empowered to ask those tough questions or what seem like tough questions, reflect on what's important to you and ask, you know, if it's, do they have employee resource groups or do they have, you know, what's the breakdown of their demographics? You know, Reed Smith just released our DEI annual report last week and it's very transparent about our DEI efforts throughout the firm. And so if DEI is something that's really important to you in your job search, certainly these are things you should be considering. And lastly, I think just standing firm in your beliefs and trusting your instinct, if you're asking these questions and looking for these resources and they're hard to find that might be telling too. So considering all of that, I think will help make the best decision for you. 

Iveliz: You know, I think that's spot on and, and although that's advice for job seekers, I mean, in this hot job market, you know, employers need to be more competitive so that advice could equally apply to employers, right? You need to be making sure you're transparent about your efforts. If this is something very serious about, then you need to make sure that that is communicated uh in a place that is accessible to people that you're looking at recruiting. So I really appreciate that advice, Erin, I think that was great advice for our listeners. 

John: Yeah. And then I'd add to that is that, I mean, we hear it over and over again that folks that find in Reed Smith, for example, attractive because of their D&I program, it's important to talk to people on the ground and get their, you know, real life experiences. Don't just take it from necessarily the interviewer or from the, the website or the brochure you may get, you know, if you, if you and ask to say love to be able to talk to some other folks, you know, in my department or, or at the firm or at the organization that might see if it resonates with you and see if the commitment to transparency and all the things are real or is it just words on a page but doesn't filter down and get felt by, you know, the people that have boots on the ground. So all all all fantastic advice. So speaking of advice Erin, I know we're getting close to running out of time here, but you've already done so much here, Reed Smith, but also obviously with your career, what advice do you have for our audience, whether they're working for companies, law firms, other organizations and the like specifically with respect to talent development? 

Erin: Yeah, this is a great note to end on John and Iveliz I think maybe sprinkled it in earlier that it is a very hot job market right now and people are realizing they kind of have options and are seeing where they can go. And I think it's, it's not just about money anymore, you know, it's not just about the high paying salaries, you need to make a commitment to developing people and especially developing diverse talent. And I think as organizations, we often are pretty reactive instead of proactive. And what I mean by that is when people leave especially high performing diverse talent, you'll hear a bunch of people say, wow, you know, I can't believe that person left. They were so great, they were gonna make such a great equity partner one day. But who told them that? You know, we're not very good at prioritizing and being proactive about keeping people. So I think the conversation needs to shift from I hope that person stays in our organization to, how can I incentivize them to stay? How are we gonna communicate with our high performing diverse talent that we value them and we want them in our organizations and we see a path towards advancement. So a lot of people leave without knowing that there was a plan for them, but no one ever communicated it to them. So of course, there's lots of advice that could go on and on. But that's one that I think as organizations we can start doing to make sure people feel valued and they wanna stay in our organizations. 

John: Great advice. 

Iveliz: Absolutely. And Erin, you know, I think you shared a lot of great advice with our listeners and for those of you who have a chance, make sure you stay in touch with Erin. You can follow her on LinkedIn. I know that there's a lot of great things to come from Erin, not just, you know, at Reed Smith, but even beyond. So, Erin, thank you so much for joining us. We are again, very happy that you are part of the Reed Smith family. Uh and that you made time to join us today and really share this valuable information with our listeners because it is something that is often overlooked, right? And, and it shouldn't be overlooked particularly right now when we're in this war for talent. 

Erin: Thanks so much for having me. 

John: Thanks Erin. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean and reedsmith.com. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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