Ask me my pronouns: Creating transgender, gender non-conforming, and non-binary inclusive workplaces

In recognition of LGBT+ History Month, Nat Ochoa (they/them), an associate in Reed Smith’s labor and employment group, joins John Iino (he/him) and Iveliz Crespo (they/them) for an enlightening discussion on the importance of transgender, gender non-conforming, and non-binary (TGNCNB) inclusive workplaces. In this episode, Nat discusses being non-binary at work, their involvement with PRISM, Reed Smith’s LGBT+ business inclusion group, PRISM’s efforts to advance inclusion with Reed Smith’s recent pronoun initiative, and transgender inclusive strategies that organizations and leaders should adopt. 

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

John: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Hey Iveliz. 

Iveliz: Hi, John, How are you doing today? 

John: Oh, great. Today we wanna focus on pronouns and supporting our transgender and gender, non conforming colleagues. My pronouns are he/him. 

Iveliz: And my pronouns are they/them/theirs. 

John: Fantastic. So, we've got a great guest today. Nat Ochoa is a associate in our labor and employment groups at Reed Smith in San Francisco. Nat's pronouns are they/them/theirs. Welcome to the podcast, Nat. 

Nat: Thanks so much. I'm incredibly honored to be here. So, thanks for having me. 

John: Well, you've done so much for us and just, just an amazing, amazing to have you in. So now you're a member of PRISM, which is Reed Smith's LGBT Business Inclusion Group or employee resource group. So, tell us a little bit more about PRISM and its mission. 

Nat: Yeah. So PRISM, I joined when I first started the firm. PRISM is I think it stands for pride, respect and inclusion simply matter. And it's the LGBTQ+ group here at Reed Smith. And its mission is really to support LGBTQ+ lawyers and staff and pretty much every way professionally and personally. So a big aspect of PRISM, of course is community involvement and that goes for building community within the firm and also building community outside of the firm. And then the professional development aspect of PRISM is encouraging and supporting and promoting and hiring LGBTQ+ folk like myself. And then I guess the biggest part that I've been involved in is this advocacy piece of PRISM. And that's initiatives such as the one that we're talking about today, the pronoun initiative and policy reform in that aspect of PRISM. So there's a lot of different, there's a lot of different facets of PRISM from community development to professional development and advocacy. 

John: Yeah, absolutely and wanna give a real shout out to the great leadership of PRISM, Alan York, Jason Angelo, Michael Golebiewski, Joyce Hill and so many others. It's just been really, really, really inspiring. It's a great team. 

Iveliz: So how did you get involved with the group? I understand that you recently you joined the group once you started working at Reed Smith. But if you could just tell us a little bit about how having this LGBT, you know, business inclusion group has made a difference in changing the culture of our organization. 

Nat: Yeah. So I, I'm a fairly new associate, I've been here just under or just over a year now. And so I joined the group as soon as I got to read Smith for number one, the sense of community that it provides, I think that's the biggest piece for me, at least is knowing that there are other folks that are, have shared experiences and are bringing those shared experiences to the firm. So that's, you know, sort of why I got involved. And I think it's incredibly important and has made a difference in, you know, shaping the culture of the firm from my experience just in the aspect of spreading awareness and spreading knowledge. Oftentimes there when you're part of this community, it feels as though in the legal environment environment that sometimes you go unseen or you go unheard. And I think that having this community at Reed Smith and being involved in this community allows us to be seen and allows us to be heard and allows us to be acknowledged. And so I think that's a big way that it makes a difference. I the other way is it gives people like me or people that have experiences like me an opportunity to contribute to firm policy. And that is extremely important. I think in business development for both myself and for Reed Smith as a whole, I think that being involved in a group like this and having individuals that you can bounce ideas off of and take the initiative and start capitalizing on that in, you know, a firm policy way. I think that's the, the biggest difference that I've seen is just the firm's willingness to take ideas and actually set them into motion. 

Iveliz: Now and then I know that you mentioned that Reed Smith recently announced a new pronoun initiative um that was sponsored by PRISM, right? And that you work really hard on this policy. In part, aims to affirm the identities of transgender and non binary lawyers and staff for those folks who may not know these terms. Transgender is a term that's used to describe people whose gender identity differs from the sex that they were assigned at birth. Now, most people including transgender people are either male or female, but some people, right these are non binary individuals don't fit neatly into either categories of male or female. Now, Nat, tell us a little bit about this initiative and your involvement in this initiative. 

Nat: Sure. Yeah, like you said it was spearheaded by PRISM. So I think this actually came to be because I was having a conversation with a colleague, Ronnie Shou also an associate in the San Francisco Office about I think she was drafting a, a similar policy for a client and we were working on drafting it together and getting each other's input and we, you know, it came up. We're like, wait, do we even have a pronoun, a declared name and pronoun policy at Reed Smith? And we did a little bit of digging and found out that we didn't. And I was obviously surprised because this is something that extremely hits home for me. But after that conversation, we were just like, you know what Reed Smith doesn't have one. We, we need to do something about that. So my involvement and Ronnie's involvement came in. We started drafting the policy. We reached out to PRISM and we reached out to Reed Smith HR and just sort of like pitch the idea. And after that, they were like, yeah, give us something, draft something. And so we did. And then from there, it sort of a lot of edits went through and then we partnered with the transgender legal defense and education fund who reviewed the policy and helped craft the final draft of the policy. So that was mainly my involvement. And then there was this awesome initiative that spiraled off of that and it's the pronoun initiative that a lot of people have heard about it in the firm. And that's basically asking individuals, encouraging individuals to make the small change to their outlook signatures to include their pronouns. So at the end of my email signature, you'll see Nat Ochoa, they/them for my really close friend, you'll see Kerry Roberson, she/her and it's just a way to build allyship and support for our transgender and non binary colleagues. And so it seems like a small difference, but it's something that's a really important step. I think for the firm, it allows not only individuals like I said to show allyship and support, but it allows people like me who don't fit in to the whatever box you want to check. It allows people like me to have a voice and allows people like me to communicate with both internal clients, Ie. partners, colleagues and external clients and let them know like, hey, this is how I identify and I hope that you respect that and I hope that maybe you educate yourself on what that means. 

Iveliz: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think what I love most about the policy is that, you know, we've automated this, right? So it used to be before we could ad hoc add our pronouns to our signature line. And I agree that for me, it's also really important and it normalize, it normalizes my pronouns in a way that I don't think has been done before. And so I like that it automates it so that individuals can go into our employee, you know, one of our employee databases and and disclose their pronouns which automatically gets generated in their signature line, it gets generated into their company bio um and their company page. So it's a really awesome thing, right? With the click of a button we normalize something that, you know, historically hasn't been normalized. 

Nat: Absolutely. 

Iveliz: And that's one of the most amazing things I think about the policy. 

John: Another thing that I do, it's not automated. But, you know, if you're on a Zoom call or a Webex or Microsoft Teams, when you put in your name, you can put in your pronouns too. And so as you see a screen of full of folks that are on the Zoom meeting or the like you can see those who, you know, have declared their pronouns. So it's really great to whenever I see that. So Nat can you share with our audience how being a non-binary individual has impacted your career thus far and how do initiatives like ours make a difference to you? 

Nat: Yeah, it's impacted me actually pretty, pretty substantially and that it's given me an opportunity to, I mean, participate in, in things like this, right? It's given me an opportunity to share my experiences and become, I mean, what I hope to become a leader in the firm on this front. And so it's helped me professionally connect with other people and sort of work with Reed Smith and to see the changes that I wanna see. But also it's just been completely moving for me personally after I decided to add my pronouns to my email, I've had some great, great not, I wouldn't call it feedback necessarily, but great support. I was on a call with a partner and another associate and a couple other people. This was a few weeks ago and we're, we're talking about, you know, assignments, what we're gonna do, divvying up work and the partner refer, referred to me as she/her and it's not something, I mean, I, I understand that people are working on it. Maybe people haven't seen the email. Maybe I haven't had these intimate conversations. And so I wasn't completely taken aback. Unfortunately, I get that fairly often. But after the call, I got an email from another associate that was on the call who apologized, he, he reached out and he was like, hey, I just want to respect, you know, your pronouns and I want to let you know that I next time when I'm in that situation, I will step up to the plate. And it was just a very eye opening experience for me that something like that really impacted someone. And now I, I felt supported, I felt seen. And so that's impacted because now I like have a relationship with that person right on more than just a professional level. I have a relationship with that person on a personal level now. And so it's really given me that opportunity and impact in my career in that way, just developing those connections. And then of course, like I said, my involvement in the drafting of the policy, it's given me an opportunity to draft policies. I mean, before, before that, it's I I hadn't had much experience. I went from undergrad to law school to Reed Smith and I didn't really imagine drafting anything, anything like that. And so it's given me the opportunity to sort of get a new work experience as well and see what goes on with sort of behind the scenes and drafting these. 

John: That's just fantastic and it makes sense that you are in our labor and employment group as well. Exactly. Right. So Iveliz who else do policies like our transgender policies or pronoun initiatives? Who else does that impact? 

Iveliz: So these policies are great, right? Um We're certainly really important for our trans, non binary gender, non conforming colleagues, but they also do something else, right? When we're looking at, you know, our company, for example, that's, you know, a global law firm, we're consistently interacting with people from different countries, from different cultural backgrounds. So I think what something like this does is is that it increases global cultural competency, right? When we're interacting with either employees or clients that are in different countries or interacting with non native speakers, right, who are unfamiliar with traditionally gendered names. So it it does a lot more than just, you know, assist with uh making sure that we're creating an inclusive environment for our trans, non binary LGBT colleagues. But it also helps with, you know, global cultural competency. It enables us to interact with people and have our pronouns readily identify identifiable for folks that may not be familiar with the language or the name. Right. And, and whether or not that name is gendered in any way. So, I think it, it, it definitely certainly helps with that. So Nat, deciding whether or not to come out in a workplace, you know, I know can be a very tough thing. In your experience what are a few signs that a company is likely to be accepting and supportive of you? Um And conversely, what are some red flags that a company will not be accepting or supportive of you and your identity? 

Nat: Yeah, I mean, you said it coming out, deciding to come out in the workplace is extremely, it's a very intimate decision. It's very personal decision. It's it can be oftentimes at least it was for me, a terrifying decision. So I think that having company support is obviously extremely moving and extremely important. So I think a few signs that a company is supportive can be seen in a variety of ways. One being are these companies respecting and acknowledging trans and non binary folk. So one of those ways can be adding, like you said, John, adding the pronouns to company events, to Zoom calls on Powerpoints, things like that sort of spread awareness and check people and be like, oh right, this is something, this is a thing, this is something that's important. And so I think that if companies are doing that, at least that small step is an important one. And that sort of is a way to know if that your, your company is being supportive. I think another thing is, is your company willing to be introspective and look at your own policies and revise those policies to be non gendered? I think the crazy thing is, is I challenge people to go through their day and just tally how many times how many settings, everything that is just inherently gendered and for seemingly no reason at all, I know that when I first started really challenging myself to look at these things and it, it was just astonishing. So I think companies that do initiatives like this and companies that are willing to do the small things go a long way. I think another big thing is in something that every company can continue to continue to do is hiring and promoting trans and non binary folk. It's extremely important. I know, you know, when you step into a room, you want to see and know and understand people that have shared experiences with you. And I think putting people that have these different experiences, putting them in positions of leadership and promoting them both socially and professionally is huge. And I think that that's a big way that you can, you know, really see if a company is being supportive, who, who they're promoting, who they're choosing to highlight who they are wanting to hear from. That's really important. And then also just being receptive of policies such as this, the declared name and pronoun policy and really just taking initiative to incorporate them is obviously a massive sign of, of support. Just knowing that one person can come in and say, hey, this is extremely important to me and to my community and it needs to be recognized and having the company say, you know what I hear you, I respect you. Let's do something about it. I think some, you asked me about some red flags and I think it would just be the inverse of that, right? They're not looking to hire trans non binary folk, they're not promoting trans non binary folk, they are not taking the initiative to draft policies and they just just simply don't have these conversations. I think the biggest thing is is having these kind of conversations where everyone can learn and everyone can grow and everyone can have empathy and a new sense of understanding if companies aren't willing to have those quote unquote uncomfortable conversations, that is a massive red flag. 

John: I love, love you said that companies need to support folks both professionally and socially. That's very, really insightful. You know, some people want to be supportive but are unsure how to do so. And so, you know, talking about allies. For me, I'm very fortunate because I get to work with Iveliz every day and it just helps me as well. And I also have someone, I'm very close with who identifies as non binary. And so just frankly practicing and, and just getting used to um working with somebody like that is so important. But Nat what do you think are some of the best ways for employees who can show up as allies for their transgender and gender, non conforming colleagues? 

Nat: Yeah, I think uh I was talking to my partner about this too because when I mean, to be very honest, I didn't start actually voicing what I was feeling and I didn't start acknowledging this until I guess fairly recently within the last like 3 years or so. But that was a conversation that we had very early on was just how can individual be allies. And I think the number one way is to respect and honor people's pronouns and people's gender identities and to also be accountable for allies, be accountable for their actions and acknowledge their privileges and acknowledge their experiences and really just be willing to listen to the experiences of individuals that aren't necessarily like you. I think that allies, the number one thing as well is just commit to bettering yourself and commit to learning. I think there's a lot of, I guess hesitation. I think people are struggling with using gender neutral pronouns because it is sort of, I guess, you know, like a switched way, it's a switch in your way of thinking, but just committing to bettering yourself and educating yourself and asking respectfully and honoring when individuals maybe aren't ready to share, aren't ready to talk. But then when they are ready to talk, really, really listen and really try to have empathy and support them and raise them up. So it really all comes down to, I think, respect and honor and accountability and commitment. 

Iveliz: I think accountability is incredibly important. You know, John mentioned that he had, he works with me and that helps him in terms of, you know, making sure he's he's being cognizant of gendered language or pronouns. But I'll share a story because I think I I take this as a sign of allyship and accountability. So John and I had a call a few weeks ago and he used my correct pronouns during the call, but after the call was worried that he didn't. So he sent me a message which I thought was really nice, right? And I and I let him know that, you know, he didn't mess up my pronouns at all. But the thought that he could have was enough for, for John to send me a message privately and say, hey, I'm really sorry if I did this, you know, I'm I'm going to hold myself accountable and I thought that that was a really great example, right? It's not, I didn't have to approach John and say, hey, this really upset me. Um John, you know, not he did misgender me, but you know, even with the thought of misgender me reached out and said, hey, if I did this, I'm sorry. Um And I thought that was really great and a really good example of allyship. 

Nat: Yeah, I think that's beautiful. I, I have thank you John. I mean, that's, that is, that's amazing. Um I have a, I have a similar story exactly like that. I, I was on a call with um, some folks, I guess. Yeah, I think it was like two or three weeks ago and uh one of the associates during the call misgender me used she/her and she immediately said, excuse me, they/them, and just that subtle correction was extremely impactful. Um and she held herself accountable and I just my uh my respect for her just completely tripled after that. Well, I had a big smile on my face and, and then I remember that that exchange, Iveliz  and um I remember my, my response was when you said no, you got it right. I go, oh, thank goodness. Uh I, I was worried, I didn't but hopefully it's a good sign of continuing to, to use the correct pronouns in practice that it just becomes second nature now. So, you know, as it is, as I know, and we've, we, I know we recorded a podcast a while back and, and you said just the most important thing is just to continue to try, you may make mistakes, but just to continue to, to, to try. So, um Iveliz, there's a new study from the Trevor Project. And for those of you who don't, aren't familiar with the Trevor Project, I would recommend you Google the Trevor Project and you know, learn all about the great work that they're doing. But the study shows that one quarter of LGBTQ youth use gender neutral pronouns like they or them. Similarly. The Pew Research Center reports that one in five us adults know someone who goes by a gender neutral pronoun. Um So, but despite all the, the the generally neutral pronouns becoming more common, many still struggle with using them. So while many people and most people are well intentioned with their interactions, making the wrong assumptions about someone's gender identity or expression. And by extension, their pronouns um really can be insulting and harmful and if done repeatedly can constitute workplace bias or harassment. So, Iveliz what are some of the strategies for individuals that are struggling with using gender neutral pronouns? 

Iveliz: You know, I when I do these trainings, I, I can't preface this enough. I always say that practice, you know, is incredibly important. Um and it's not just folks with gender neutral pronouns, I find that individuals when they have a relationship with someone, for example, who uh transitions or switch, you know, changes their pronouns and people really struggle with that as well. And I think that the only way really to get better at that is to practice, right, So if you know someone, you practice using their pronouns when they're not around, you know, when you're telling someone a story about this individual, if you have a relationship with them, and those stories exist, make sure that you're being cognizant of the pronouns that you're using for that person, right? So I think practice is really important. Um you know, increased awareness is really important as well. So being mindful of all of the ways in which, you know, gender language work their way into our vocabulary is incredibly important and checking in, I think checking in with that individual and, and just making sure that you, you have the right language and that you're respecting that individual's identity um is incredibly important. But again, I, I always say this practice makes perfect. And there are also tools that folks can use. You know, there's an organization, there's a website called mypronouns.org. I believe it's a really great website, a great resource for folks that are interested in learning more about pronouns or just practicing pronouns as well. So I think that's really important to remember is that this these things take practice um in the same way that we, we practice removing other, you know, non inclusive language from our vocabulary. Uh We should put the same effort towards making sure that, you know, we're practicing and getting people's pronouns correct. 

John: So Iveliz, you, you, you probably don't even don't know this, but there's a number of conversations, whether it's on the phone or email conversations that, you know, we're talking about you in a very positive way, obviously. But, um, we're talking about you that, um, a number of folks that I've communicated with will use they/ them for, um, when referring to you. And at the same time I've been on calls with folks who will refer you as she or her and I'll just correct them and say, well, you know, Iveliz prefers to use they/them. So there's there's those opportunities for folks to practice outside of the one on one conversations with the person who identifies as um gender, non conforming. 

Iveliz: Yeah. And you know what I think that's really beautiful. You know, John, what you just said and also, you know what nat said earlier regarding the interaction they had with another associate in the moment when you know, you misgender someone, it's really painful for them, right? So it's really important to take accountability there. But one of the things that I think is really important, right? In terms of a is when you hear someone use the wrong pronouns for someone, it's really hard for that individual themselves to speak up. It's a lot easier for someone else who's a neutral third party to speak up. So I encourage folks, right? If that's happening, if you're hearing conversations and you notice that someone uses the wrong pronouns, have a conversation and say, hey, actually that person uses these pronouns instead, it doesn't necessarily have to be argumentative, right? Because we're all here to educate one another. But it's really important for people to show allyship in those moments, right? Because it's hard for the person who's experiencing that microaggression or that misgender to speak up on behalf of themselves. So I really appreciate you, you doing that John, when, when I'm in the room and when I'm not in the room. Before we end off Nat, you know, I know that we spoke a lot about policies. Um I know that we spoke a lot about allyship, but I want to have a I have a question specifically about organizational leaders because we need strong leaders to drive inclusion. So how can organizational leaders that are interested in being more trans inclusive, right? Create a sense of inclusion and belonging for our, for our trans, non binary and gender, non conforming employees. You know, what are some signs that leadership is getting it right? 

Nat: I think the signs that leadership is getting, that's a, that's a good question. I think it is creating an environment where individuals can feel as though they can number one truly be themselves and not only that but be themselves and then create opportunities and create policies and create change within their organization. They feel as though they can go to leadership and leader, leadership will say yes, we're gonna give you the autonomy to draft what you think is important. We're gonna give you the opportunity to and we're gonna lift you up if you want to make changes within this organization. I think just starting simply with inclusion efforts as far as you know, like we've been talking about initiating these smaller pronoun policies and then hopefully, that will translate into even greater policy change and then from policy, it will become an environment. I think my next goal hopefully is to get my hands on the employee handbook at Reed Smith and just go through it and take away all of the inherently gendered language. I think that that's a really important and telling step in a company is, are they doing everything that they possibly can on paper and are they doing everything they possibly can on a personal level? So it's making changes like that, but it's also again, like trying to support and uplift individuals that have differing experiences. 

Iveliz: Absolutely. And one of the things that I think is really important too, right, particularly for companies that are interested in recruiting and building their ranks with gender, non conforming or trans individuals, your job descriptions and the paperwork that your, you know, employees have to fill out or new hires have to fill out or, or even candidates have to fill out. Right. That's equally as important as your policies and your, you know, your handbooks. Um So it's really important to go through that and make sure that you don't have that gendered language. I can't tell you how many times we review where it says things like he or she will be responsible for. Right? And I'm just like, well, who are you even talking about? For me that's a sign that this company is not really necessarily ready for someone like me who's non binary uses, they them pronouns to, to come join them. So I think what you're saying about the policies are important that language is really important and these job descriptions and even the paperwork that people have to fill out. We just want to make sure that that people are, are being mindful of that as well and making sure they're, they're changing those job descriptions or those that paperwork to be more inclusive. 

Nat: Well, and even things like dress code like uh places sometimes they have or if you're getting your picture taken for like a firm profile or something, if companies have policies that say, ok, men should wear a button up shirt and a tie, women wear a nice blouse like things like that. Those are important changes, changes as well. 

John: Absolutely. Nat, thanks so much for coming in. Just a great informative discussion. I'm so proud of what we've done. I know I'd recently posted our LinkedIn, but their pronouns initiative to encourage our audience to check that out as well. But thank you for all the work that you've done and I know you will continue to do here at Reed Smith. 

Nat: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was an honor. 

John:  Thanks to you, Iveliz as well. Thanks for sharing all your great experiences and advice. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean and reedsmith.com. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. 

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